APA sudden death question. I'm confused.

TheJackal

Member
I can ask my team captain tonight. But, this is confusing to me, and will hound me all day.
Scenario....
APA 8 ball Tricup finals....
1st match...we win 2-1
2nd match..we lose 0-2
3rd match...we lose 0-2
So, we're down, score is 2-5
Here's where I'm confused
4th match...we throw a 5, they throw a, I think, 4 (maybe a 3)
They said the match was a 2-1 race with the 1st rack counting as 2 points, and the 2nd counting as 1 point (confusion 1)
Our player gets the 8 on the break, and wins the next game (2-0 in games). Score is...5-5(correct)???
5th match...they throw me, they throw a 3 due to the 23 rule...1 game sudden death (confusion 2)...I win, we advance
My question(s)
1. Why wasn't our 4th match a complete match, instead of a 2-1 race? Mathematically, if our player got shut out in a gull match, we lose 2-8
If he makes it to the hill, we lose 3-7
But, if he wins by shutout, it's 5-5 going to the 5th match
If they make the hill and lose it's 4-6
2. Why was my match (match 5) a 1 rack winner take all?

The best I could figure, based on the little I could find doing research, is it had something to do with time.

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the teams are in Sudden Death then you went over the time limit. Sudden death match is 2 points (and individual match win) for first rack with the 2nd rack being worth 1 point. That applies to all sudden death 8 balls matches.
Being the teams were tied in the final (5th) match then the team that wins the first rack receives 2 points and the match win. However with the 2 points there is no way for other team to tie for the tie breaker (individual match wins) to come into play.

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can ask my team captain tonight. But, this is confusing to me, and will hound me all day.
Scenario....
APA 8 ball Tricup finals....
1st match...we win 2-1
2nd match..we lose 0-2
3rd match...we lose 0-2
So, we're down, score is 2-5
Here's where I'm confused
4th match...we throw a 5, they throw a, I think, 4 (maybe a 3)
They said the match was a 2-1 race with the 1st rack counting as 2 points, and the 2nd counting as 1 point (confusion 1)
Our player gets the 8 on the break, and wins the next game (2-0 in games). Score is...5-5(correct)???
5th match...they throw me, they throw a 3 due to the 23 rule...1 game sudden death (confusion 2)...I win, we advance
My question(s)
1. Why wasn't our 4th match a complete match, instead of a 2-1 race? Mathematically, if our player got shut out in a gull match, we lose 2-8
If he makes it to the hill, we lose 3-7
But, if he wins by shutout, it's 5-5 going to the 5th match
If they make the hill and lose it's 4-6
2. Why was my match (match 5) a 1 rack winner take all?

The best I could figure, based on the little I could find doing research, is it had something to do with time.
Yes, it is all about time. Ours is after 3.5 hours, any match started is sudden death.
1. Time
2. Because with a tie score, the winner of the first rack (2 points) can't lose. so it is a one rack winner take all.

Just a way to make sure the tourney doesn't run ridiculously long.

really wouldn't be a problem if people held to the shot time and timeout time...

Justaneng

Registered
8-BALL: This format is implemented 3 hours and 45 minutes into an 8-Ball match. The rack must be struck in the fifth individual match by the 3-hours-and-45-minutes mark, or all subsequent individual matches will begin with a rack worth two team points. If that two-point rack mathematically wins the team match, the team match will be over; if it does not win the team match, a second rack worth one team point will conclude that individual match. This procedure will continue in each subsequent individual match until a team mathematically wins or the overall match finishes in a tie: one two-point rack, followed by a one-point rack if necessary. Tie breakers will be decided by the team that won the most individual matches.

dquarasr

Registered
I intensely dislike this rule. I fully understand that tournaments must remain on schedule, but captains must be aware of the match scores and the time such that they don't end up throwing a low SL player at the end against a high SL player when time runs out and this rule takes effect. As if a 3 has much of a chance winning a single rack against a 6 or 7.

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I intensely dislike this rule. I fully understand that tournaments must remain on schedule, but captains must be aware of the match scores and the time such that they don't end up throwing a low SL player at the end against a high SL player when time runs out and this rule takes effect. As if a 3 has much of a chance winning a single rack against a 6 or 7.
I think they have a better chance of winning a 1 rack race than they do winning 2 in a normal race. My team missed going to vegas by 1/8th of an inch a few years ago. I had a 3 up against their 7 in sudden death. we win the lag and my 3 hits a beauty of a 2nd row break and the 8 ball is on a dead straight slow roll toward the side pocket. Dang thing stops a half rotation from falling in. Of course their 7 goes on to run the rack out and we are left holding the 1000 bucks while they are making reservations...

Regardless, if captains were more militant about the 30-45 second per shot on normal and 1 minute on difficult or game balls, I don't think sudden death would ever occur...but who wants to sit and watch a clock on every shot??

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I had to adapt to this the hard way the one time our team went to Vegas. I should have held one of our stronger shooters for last, to have a better chance in the sudden death match...We lost our first match out there cuz I only could play a SL3 in the last match. It was our first time out there, and the first time playing using sudden death rules. After that round, I always held my 7 or one of my 5's for last...of course, it didn't come up again, lol

dquarasr

Registered
Regardless, if captains were more militant about the 30-45 second per shot on normal and 1 minute on difficult or game balls, I don't think sudden death would ever occur...but who wants to sit and watch a clock on every shot??
Time guidelines are 20 seconds normal shots, 45 difficult shots.

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I think they have a better chance of winning a 1 rack race than they do winning 2 in a normal race. My team missed going to vegas by 1/8th of an inch a few years ago. I had a 3 up against their 7 in sudden death. we win the lag and my 3 hits a beauty of a 2nd row break and the 8 ball is on a dead straight slow roll toward the side pocket. Dang thing stops a half rotation from falling in. Of course their 7 goes on to run the rack out and we are left holding the 1000 bucks while they are making reservations...

Regardless, if captains were more militant about the 30-45 second per shot on normal and 1 minute on difficult or game balls, I don't think sudden death would ever occur...but who wants to sit and watch a clock on every shot??
I don't think its the shots the go over the time limit by 5 or 10 seconds its the guys that regularly spend 2 or 3 minutes on every shot. I have seen it often enough when I shot league. The guys own team should be the first to say something if they have a real slow player.

TheJackal

Member
Regardless, if captains were more militant about the 30-45 second per shot on normal and 1 minute on difficult or game balls, I don't think sudden death would ever occur...but who wants to sit and watch a clock on every shot??
We had an issue with a player on the other team on Saturday. Both players are 7's, but their player was taking forever. Even on 'routine' shots. It got to the point we had to notify the TD. He sent someone over to time both shooters. She would shout out '20 seconds' on every shot, whether easy or hard didn't matter.
I was told the rule is 20 seconds on 'routine' shots, and 45 seconds for more 'difficult' shots.

Justaneng

Registered
Regardless, if captains were more militant about the 30-45 second per shot on normal and 1 minute on difficult or game balls, I don't think sudden death would ever occur...but who wants to sit and watch a clock on every shot??

Challenge here is where you’d save the most time enforcing this is during the SL-2 vs SL-2 12 inning slop off. And those are the players you need to not feel too much pressure and stick on the team for handicap purposes.

The SL-6/6 and 7/7 match that goes hill-hill and with a handful of safeties can chew some clock even without people slow playing it.

I don’t think I’ve seen the OP’s case of not even getting the 4th match started at the 3:45 mark though….that’s a different level of pain.

dquarasr

Registered
Time guidelines are 20 seconds normal shots, 45 difficult shots.
Responding to my own post:

What if I consider all shots difficult?

Do I get 45 seconds?

Rules should be specific not subject to interpretation.

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Responding to my own post:

What if I consider all shots difficult?

Do I get 45 seconds?

Rules should be specific not subject to interpretation.
Without shot clocks, that is impossible. There's already too much "rule mongering" as it is, and even the pro's don't have shot clocks in the early rounds of major tournaments, much less beginners like those who make up the bulk of the APA. And I think the general intent is to try and keep people in the ballpark of those times, not to try and make it something to be enforced.

In big tournaments, they have to stay on schedule, so they have to make provisions for it.

TheJackal

Member
Without shot clocks, that is impossible. There's already too much "rule mongering" as it is, and even the pro's don't have shot clocks in the early rounds of major tournaments, much less beginners like those who make up the bulk of the APA. And I think the general intent is to try and keep people in the ballpark of those times, not to try and make it something to be enforced.

In big tournaments, they have to stay on schedule, so they have to make provisions for it.
In league play, we let stuff go...except timeouts, at the beginning. If it tends to become habit that match, we use a cellphone stopwatch. The problem is, who's going to enforce it? During tournaments, you can get the TD. But, during league, there's nobody
We had playoffs to make TriCup. Our final match STARTED at 11:30 (7:00 league start).
I played another guy once that, after 3 innings, stood at the table that seemed like at LEAST a full minute. THEN turned to ask me of he was stripes or solids. I think he did it to get under my skin, because he was losing. It didn't work.

TheJackal

Member
Responding to my own post:

What if I consider all shots difficult?

Do I get 45 seconds?

Rules should be specific not subject to interpretation.
I see the sarcasm, but you're not wrong. We have a 2 that's a true 2. Every shot is 'hard'.
She played another 2 in 9 ball. That's only a 14/14 race. The match took 29 innings.

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I see the sarcasm, but you're not wrong. We have a 2 that's a true 2. Every shot is 'hard'.
She played another 2 in 9 ball. That's only a 14/14 race. The match took 29 innings.
I've seen many matches go far, far longer.... (those had to be SL1's, going to 14, SL2's go to 19, before someone jumps in and starts flaming, lol)
I've had 8-ball matches between SL2's that have gone over 50 innings, and that's a race to 2, lol

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APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Responding to my own post:

What if I consider all shots difficult?

Do I get 45 seconds?

Rules should be specific not subject to interpretation.
I know you're joking, but it's an invalid scenario - it's a 20-second AVERAGE and a 45 second MAX, combined. In that respect is specific - you can't meet the average if you take the max every time. That said, if you took 45 seconds on every shot, nobody would probably complain except those who think complaining will give them an advantage but the match would take about a half hour longer, an hour if both players do it. The part that's not specific is that the times are guidelines. That's intentional so they put some downward pressure on shot times without giving the rulebook thumpers more ammo to do their thing. That's also why there are no specific penalties. Otherwise you would have players wanting BIH at 46 seconds. When facing a slow player, the procedure should be first bring it up with their captain, if they don't speed up bring it up with an official, who should watch (maybe time) and issue warnings to one or both players as appropriate, and if that doesn't speed up play the official will issue stiffer penalties like BIH if necessary. A big problem is teams wait too long to say something, then want you to do something at a critical point in the match.

Justaneng

Registered
I've seen many matches go far, far longer.... (those had to be SL1's, going to 14, SL2's go to 19, before someone jumps in and starts flaming, lol)
I've had 8-ball matches between SL2's that have gone over 50 innings, and that's a race to 2, lol

I’ve seen bad, but 50 innings is a whole new level. I think I’ve seen 30 once.

(Keep in mind an APA inning requires both people to finish shooting and carries over between racks).

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If they really need to speed things up, here's a way that doesn't need any clock:

Before the first shot of your inning, you must remove one of your balls from the table (but not the eight).