APA-What is the deal with them?

[Bluewolf]

Does anyone know at what point a person gets bumped up in APA? I played this guy last night. He was new to the league. He lost his first match as a 4, then strung 6 straight victories playing 2s and threes. I think he pads his innings, but still, that is 6 victories out of seven. He is still rated as a three. So, when I played him last night, it was obvious to everyone, that he is easily a four. It was a tough match because he shoots so good, even making rather difficult shots, that even most fours often miss.

I was in my relaxed, emotionless, concentrated mode and was able to pull it out of my hat and beat him, the same way I beat the other four the week before and had beaten a five several weeks ago:defense with ball speed control and strategy. So while I was shooting very well, he was a much better shooter. I am now on the 50 yard line for the last two sessions I and it would not be to my team’s advantage to go four by the end of the session. They are playing me all of the time, because I am cagy and can often pull off victories over higher ranked players, have lost to a few threes but beaten the fours and five. I know I will be a four soon enough but would like to be a little better of a shooter before that happens.

When I suggest to the captain that this could be a potential problem, he does not believe I could be bumped up. What do you think of all of that? What winning percentage would bump me up and why the other guy, now with 6 out of 8 victories is still a three?

Laura.

 

[Bob Romano]

In our area, it takes phone calls (complaints, to the league operators) who then come out and spectate or send a spy in to watch the person in question.

Although Laura, I never play pool. I pick up a stick maybe twice a year and other times to just move them around when I am cleaning the house. I played 3 years ago for 1 season and started as a 2. I played a total of 3 matches and won 1 of them (only because the other girl I was playing was sick that day) They raised me to a 3. I have no business being a 3 and I cannot compete as a 3 so now I can't play even if I wanted to. The reason they gave me for raising me is because my husband is Bob Romano. How do you like that!

The APA is an excellent organization, although I don't necessarily agree on how they handicap people.

Eydie

 

[hemicudas]

In our area, it takes phone calls (complaints, to the league operators) who then come out and spectate or send a spy in to watch the person in question.

Although Laura, I never play pool. I pick up a stick maybe twice a year and other times to just move them around when I am cleaning the house. I played 3 years ago for 1 season and started as a 2. I played a total of 3 matches and won 1 of them (only because the other girl I was playing was sick that day) They raised me to a 3. I have no business being a 3 and I cannot compete as a 3 so now I can't play even if I wanted to. The reason they gave me for raising me is because my husband is Bob Romano. How do you like that!

The APA is an excellent organization, although I don't necessarily agree on how they handicap people.

Eydie

Eydie, you mean to say Rob and Mary have it in for you guys? NAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhh. Not them, lol........ I know, it's the cry babies, not Rob and Mary but have they seen you play?

 

[Bluewolf]

I played 3 years ago for 1 season and started as a 2. I played a total of 3 matches and won 1 of them (only because the other girl I was playing was sick that day) They raised me to a 3. I have no business being a 3 and I cannot compete as a 3 so now I can't play even if I wanted to. The reason they gave me for raising me is because my husband is Bob Romano. How do you like that!

Eydie

If you like pool, which you must because you are here, why not compete anyway? If you lose a couple of matches, you will go back to a two. I always try to win but if I lose, look at what the other player did well to try to learn from it and look at what my mistakes were strategically as a learning tool to not repeat the same mistakes.

It is all supposed to be fun anyway, getting out with your friends and so forth so I do not worry about that part so much, the winning or loosing part, was just concerned that if I got bumped to a four before the end of the session it would hurt my team and I am incapable of sandbagging. Being a two is not so bad, and I was in fact a two for two and a half sessions. Then I got to be a three and have been there for one and a half sessions. I did not play last session so started out the session kind of rusty.

I saw the formula last year and it plainly states that for a two, it is not based on innings. When a two has 51% wins, they go up pure and simple. I just do not know how they figure out bumping threes to a four, five or whatever. If you play a few matches and lose, they will have no recourse but to make you a two again.

Do not discount your victory just because the other player is sick. I have at times played my best pool when sick because my brain is then out of gear, am receiving no negative messages and then can just stand up and play. It is more likely that you had a complainer on your hands.It is in fact, possible for a decent two to beat a four if the two is having a good night, plus they get that 4-2 spot.

My husband is an sl7 who is locked as an sl7, but they never discriminated against me because of who my husband was.

This does not make a lot of sense to me.

Laura

 

[hustlefinger]

The reason they gave me for raising me is because my husband is Bob Romano. How do you like that!

That’s an excellent reason, guilt by association.

I believe that in APA a player needs 10 matches before they start to even out. The more matches they play the closer a true handicap appears. Baring of course those that try to manipulate the system.

It’s hard to tell sometimes if and when a player needs to move up, especially new players. Lots of times, players are just excited to be playing on a team and not feeling any pressure at all. So they might play above normal. Time will tell and even this out.

Rick

 

[rocky]

Does anyone know at what point a person gets bumped up in APA? Laura.

Your handicap is determened by a innings versus a loss, win ratio. If he is a three but all his games are going 4-5 innings and he wins, he wont go up for a long time, if at all. In the bowels of BI there is a forum with the APA handicap matrix on it.

 

[Bob Romano]

Hey $Bill and Laura,

It was not Rob and Mary's league. Rob and Mary over the past several years have sold about half of their leagues, so this was Mark Valagus's league that I was raised on. Rob and Mary are fully aware that I don't play but they don't get involved. In addition, it just happened to be that same team that won city wide to Vegas. Bob and I could not go with them and the team still did ok.

Laura, I love the game I just don't have the drive or the talent to play. I know where the balls are supposed to go, but I cant get them in the right pockets. I realize that it takes practice but honestly I would just rather watch the game. In addition, I am very allergic to cigarette smoke and I tend to drink way to much when I go to league. That's the main reason I stay away. I don't even go with Bob to league, only if they make it to the playoffs.

My passion is promoting the events. I really enjoy working with "most" of the players and trying to bring billiards to a higher level. It is my goal to see the sport get bigger sponsorships and be taken more seriously throughout the world. I enjoy reading and posting on this site along with a couple others, and I have made a huge number of really good friends from this. This seems to be where my talent lies, so I will continue on the promotion side.

We have 3 different size pool tables in our basement that I can play on, but I find that folding close on one of them makes better use out of them for me.
LOL....

Back to your question, I have forwarded it to Mary Guzzo a friend of mine and Bill's, I will cc you with her answers.

Eydie

 

[9balldiva]

Does anyone know at what point a person gets bumped up in APA?

Your rank [skill level] is determined by multiple things. 1's and 2's should average 6 or 7 innings per game, 3's and 4's should average 4 to 6, and so on. They look at the safes you shoot, the innings, the balls you make in a game, the other players game, your win/loss ration (percentage)...it's an endless list. I don't know about your league, but in ours all the skill levels are computer generated. I started out as a 3 in 9-ball. I stayed a 3 for about a year. Other teams complained all the time. I would play a 4, 5, or 6 and beat them all with somwhat under average innings. I shot safes, masses, and they never moved me up. It's hard to move up. Your skill level starts as a 3.0, and gradually depending on your matches you get moved up to a 3.12, and 3.19 and 3.25...you can see how it would take a while. Winning a match with a 17-3 split raises your skill about .1!! Then, if your team is in 1st place they try to screw your team by moving 3 or 4 people up. They say it is computer generated, but I think it's however they feel that day...you can never understand it fully!

 

[9balldiva]

Your handicap is determened by a innings versus a loss, win ratio. If he is a three but all his games are going 4-5 innings and he wins, he wont go up for a long time, if at all. In the bowels of BI there is a forum with the APA handicap matrix on it.

where is that matrix located...I'm curious to see it all. I have been trying to understand it better!

 

[UWPoolGod1]

I have the matrix printed out in my case that I got off BD. Not that it matters all that much to me. I usually show it to people who start this same discussion. It is funny to me though to see the team captains complain about each others players. After beating a 6 my first ever match I was bumped up to a SL7 and have been there ever since. I should be at that ranking (47-7 w-l w/5 sho), but it is funny to see the people who gripe about whos a SL3 or SL4.

We were playing this team a few weeks ago. We have a SL2 guy and he can barely hald a cue, I mean he has lost all but 1 match. Playing their SL3 captain. She scratches on the 8 in one and our guy wins after 8 innings in the other. Match over. Afterwards she comes up and says. "Your 2's not a 2". They had this other very safe-playing-shot-making girl. So I said "Well your 4's not a 4" She was aghast..."Yes she is, how do you figure." I said "She makes too many balls in a row, sets herself up, and plays safe when she needs to..that is a 5". She was like "Oh yeah she just got lowered from a 5." Righhtttttt. I don't really care all that much but was a funny retort.

Unless you really have a good time on a team with fun players, being a SL7 is torture to me. Like last night, match was over in 10 minutes with 6 innings (3 safes) 5-0. Then you have to sit there for another 2+ hours..keeping score. Our team is really low in the session so there is no hope for this one.

 

[Bluewolf]

My way-kind of long

Hey $Bill and Laura,

Laura, I love the game I just don't have the drive or the talent to play. I know where the balls are supposed to go, but I cant get them in the right pockets. I realize that it takes practice but honestly I would just rather watch the game. In addition, I am very allergic to cigarette smoke and I tend to drink way to much when I go to league. That's the main reason I stay away. I don't even go with Bob to league, only if they make it to the playoffs.


Back to your question, I have forwarded it to Mary Guzzo a friend of mine and Bill's, I will cc you with her answers.

Eydie

Thanks. Most twos and many threes too do not get the balls in the pockets they want them to go into. In fact, fours miss lots of shots also depending on how good of a four they are.

When I was a beginning two, my captain let me know that I had no talent whatsoever and my own husband did not even believe in me. Some do have natural talent, but I found when I took karate, that many times, those with less talent, who knew that they had to work harder were the ones who eventually got it and rose to the cream. My first pool instuctor taught me a basic stroke, bridge, etc and told me to work on the easy short ones first so that I was having success.I had only been playing pool for a month when I took that first lesson.Then about six weeks later (still losing as a two) I went to pool school, which gave me a better stroke and learned to see if something was a scratch shot,etc. Then, of course, later FL taught me some other things, a lot of the mental part,and playing by feel, especially. All of this helped me to have a little confidence, even when I was losing all of the time. In my mind,as a two, when I was playing someone good, if I could get in a couple of my balls before they won, I was doing good. I have tried to be realistic with my expectations of myself and focus on getting a little better, getting more balls in when I was a two.

I have found that many sl2 women have low self esteem. I have seen many stay twos for a very long time because they do not believe in themselves. Part of that is the way many of us were brought up, that women are not as good at sports as a man is. Twos are constantly coming to me for help even though i am not a high player, and I think that is because I know how they feel , and I try to help them in what they need most, confidence and relaxation. I try to help them have a straight relaxed stroke and emphazise that it does not matter if the balls go in or not, but if they can just relax, stroke smooth, the pocketing of balls will come in time, as it has for me.

My sl7 hubbie taught me this, once he realized that I had a tiny potential. Throw the balls on the table. The only thing that counts is if I do my stroke correct, follow through correct and freeze for a second or two so that my head does not pop up. It did not count if the balls went in or not because he said in time, my brain would learn that. We jokingly called this zen pool. i practiced this way for a long time and still do at the beginning of my practice. What this did is I learned to relax, not put pressure on myself, and bellieve it or not, I got a little better soon after practicing this way. I think that relaxation, just playing, with little concern of the outcome is a very good tool for pool. In learing this early, it makes me less likely to screwup shots due to nerves as I get better. As a result of this relaxation, I rarely 'beat myself up' regardless of the outcome.

I have pretty much mastered relaxation and focus, which will serve me well when I do get better, IMO.

I still miss a lot of shots,especially long cuts, and am just now learning to play easy position, but oh well, I have only played for a little shy of two years,and 4 sessions of APA, and I do keep getting better slowly, so time takes time. I think it would be rather unrealistic of me to expect to play as well as someone who has played much longer so just keep plugging along and being satisfied with slow progress.

As far as cigarette smoke, in my non smoking days (hoping to quit again soon), I had to work bingo for my son's swim team. I could literally feel my throat closing up and was afraid I was going to go into shock or something. I started taking an antihistamine before going, and this helped quite a bit.

I am glad you enjoy promoting the sport, we need more people like you.

Laura

 

[Pelican]

I lost Mon night to a young lady that is rated SL3. She has won 14 out of her last 15 matches. She strings together 5 and 6 ball runs with fantastic shape and banks like a one pocket player. I think she must be sleeping with the league operator.

 

[Bluewolf]

I lost Mon night to a young lady that is rated SL3. She has won 14 out of her last 15 matches. She strings together 5 and 6 ball runs with fantastic shape and banks like a one pocket player. I think she must be sleeping with the league operator.

At the end of my first session(sl2) in the playoffs, I showed up as promised and was so sick I could barely hold my head up. The other team put up a four who was the best four in the league, and next session was promoted to a five after about two weeks. Well, our four was too weak to beat him, our three could not beat him with a 3-2 spot, so the best choice was to put me on him as a dump. Because I was so sick, I went into the zone and beat him by a narrow margin 3-2. That first session, my captain had put so little confidence in my game but was so shocked by that win, and it gave me the confidence I needed to go on a winning streak the next session.

The session before I became a three, at one point I had a 90% winning average, which dropped to about 70% by the end of the session. Then at the beginning of the next session, I was winning all of my matches as a two again, also beating the four that I played that session.

Still do not understand the system. But I do know that I consistently ran 3-4 balls as a two, by the second half of that first session, on a well spread out table and I played a lot of defense and my safes were rarely counted.

There was also another two who could run balls and we were neck and neck, with me beating her by only a slim margin. As a two, she was exited when she ran 6 balls and beat a three.We finally both went up to three IMO, much later than this should have happened. I think that with her, she was playing in two leagues in the same pool hall on the same night and she told me that she won one and lost one on a fairly consistent basis. I think that that kept her a two for a long time when she was clearly better than many of the threes.

So yeah there is some sandbagging, but it seems to eventually catch up with them, but later IMO than it should.

Laura

 

[hustlefinger]

Unless you really have a good time on a team with fun players, being a SL7 is torture to me. Like last night, match was over in 10 minutes with 6 innings (3 safes) 5-0. Then you have to sit there for another 2+ hours..keeping score. Our team is really low in the session so there is no hope for this one.

I understand where you’re coming from.

Down here in the swamp we got a new thing going. It’s the APA Power Division league. Three man team plus one as an alternate, sl5 and above. And it’s over early, doesn’t conflict with the late night pool playing life style that I would like to lead against that of the early morning ritual that I must lead.

Rick

 

[9balldiva]

I have the matrix printed out in my case that I got off BD. Not that it matters all that much to me. I usually show it to people who start this same discussion. It is funny to me though to see the team captains complain about each others players. After beating a 6 my first ever match I was bumped up to a SL7 and have been there ever since. I should be at that ranking (47-7 w-l w/5 sho), but it is funny to see the people who gripe about whos a SL3 or SL4.

We were playing this team a few weeks ago. We have a SL2 guy and he can barely hald a cue, I mean he has lost all but 1 match. Playing their SL3 captain. She scratches on the 8 in one and our guy wins after 8 innings in the other. Match over. Afterwards she comes up and says. "Your 2's not a 2". They had this other very safe-playing-shot-making girl. So I said "Well your 4's not a 4" She was aghast..."Yes she is, how do you figure." I said "She makes too many balls in a row, sets herself up, and plays safe when she needs to..that is a 5". She was like "Oh yeah she just got lowered from a 5." Righhtttttt. I don't really care all that much but was a funny retort.

Unless you really have a good time on a team with fun players, being a SL7 is torture to me. Like last night, match was over in 10 minutes with 6 innings (3 safes) 5-0. Then you have to sit there for another 2+ hours..keeping score. Our team is really low in the session so there is no hope for this one.

What is BD?? I am just curious to ook over that sheet...maybe get a little better understanding!

There are some 4's who really can play well. I am a 4 in 9ball, and just got moved up in 8ball to a 4. I have a 19-3 record on my 9ball team, that's a combination of last session and what has gone so far with this session. I just play better under pressure. When my opponent gets 7 or 8 balls ahead of me it pushes me to play harder, and before I know it the match is over and I have won! Our team is made up of a bunch of friends, so we have a good time while playing. We all share 2 or 3 pitchers, and shoot the shit all night. So, it serves two purposes for us...hang out with friends, and do something we love!!!

 

[9balldiva]

Unless you really have a good time on a team with fun players, being a SL7 is torture to me. Like last night, match was over in 10 minutes with 6 innings (3 safes) 5-0. Then you have to sit there for another 2+ hours..keeping score. Our team is really low in the session so there is no hope for this one.

I understand about the SL7. My boyfriend is a SL9 in 9ball. Of course you play longer in 9ball games because you have to run 7 and a half racks to win the game, which is pretty difficult. Then you have the teams who are cheating the system by throwing a SL3 or 4 on your 9. So, here the 3 only has to make 3 balls, while the 9 has to make 75, tell me that is fair! That is my pet peeve in league. I think if you have an equal or almost equal player to match up, you should play him or her!

 

[Walt in VA]

....Then you have the teams who are cheating the system by throwing a SL3 or 4 on your 9. So, here the 3 only has to make 3 balls, while the 9 has to make 75, tell me that is fair!....

9BD - Is this APA 9-ball? If so, the standard APA match-up would be a 3 making 25 balls against a 9 making 75. Even a "1" has to make 14 balls - where did the 3 balls come from, and did the APA approve of changes to their basic rules? Sounds like you guys need to contact St. Louis and find out what's going on, or maybe there's something I'm missing.
Walt in VA

 

[Bluewolf]

What is BD?? I am just curious to ook over that sheet...maybe get a little better understanding!

There are some 4's who really can play well. I am a 4 in 9ball, and just got moved up in 8ball to a 4. I have a 19-3 record on my 9ball team, that's a combination of last session and what has gone so far with this session. I just play better under pressure. !

BD=billiards digest forum

When I spoke of the 4s in my area, I was speaking more of the middle of the pack, not the top of the heap fours. Yep, we have a couple of fours who play like fives. Also, there are regional differences. Someone on BD had an sl4 friend who moved to a different area and they made him an sl6 right away. Also there is a league 30 miles north of us which is stronger and I hear it reported that their sl4s can beat our sl5s.

Laura

 

[9balldiva]

9BD - Is this APA 9-ball? If so, the standard APA match-up would be a 3 making 25 balls against a 9 making 75. Even a "1" has to make 14 balls - where did the 3 balls come from, and did the APA approve of changes to their basic rules? Sounds like you guys need to contact St. Louis and find out what's going on, or maybe there's something I'm missing.
Walt in VA

Oooops!! It was supposed to say a 3 making 31, but even that was the wrong amoutn...25 is what I meant!! I made that sound really bad huh?? Anyhow, I still find it rather shallow to throw a 3 on a 9. Our 9 usually can beat anyone they throw, he just has to concentrate more!!

 

[9balldiva]

BD=billiards digest forum

When I spoke of the 4s in my area, I was speaking more of the middle of the pack, not the top of the heap fours. Yep, we have a couple of fours who play like fives. Also, there are regional differences. Someone on BD had an sl4 friend who moved to a different area and they made him an sl6 right away. Also there is a league 30 miles north of us which is stronger and I hear it reported that their sl4s can beat our sl5s.

Laura

Oh yeah, that happens here too. They APA in Ocala is way under-ranked. Their 4's can most times beat our 5's and 6's. It seems like our Florida APA is one of the more honest...it really bites when you play a team from out of town in cities and realize that your 4 seems to be only a 2 compared to theirs!!