Are leagues losing members because of inadequate handicap systems?
- Thread starter Snapshot9
- Start date
I think Frankncali said it about right
Alot of the handicap system depends on how strong your league is. If you have a league of 8ball that is 16teams and is filled with a bunch of SL 6's and 7's then over all i think your going to see alot of people with lower handicaps because thier always playing stronger people, and the games have very few innings. Which is where you get the 4's and 5's who play like 6's and 7's and so forth.
But on the flip side if you have the same amount of teams but its filled with weaker players, your obviously going to have some guys who are overrated. And then they wonder why thier getting smoked by someone who is a 3 or a 4.
Now i had a good conversation with a friend of mine who said alot of times people who are score keeping dont keep a accurate count of safties, expecially when people miss intentionally, to play safe, but make it look like they was trying.
Dave
Alot of the handicap system depends on how strong your league is. If you have a league of 8ball that is 16teams and is filled with a bunch of SL 6's and 7's then over all i think your going to see alot of people with lower handicaps because thier always playing stronger people, and the games have very few innings. Which is where you get the 4's and 5's who play like 6's and 7's and so forth.
But on the flip side if you have the same amount of teams but its filled with weaker players, your obviously going to have some guys who are overrated. And then they wonder why thier getting smoked by someone who is a 3 or a 4.
Now i had a good conversation with a friend of mine who said alot of times people who are score keeping dont keep a accurate count of safties, expecially when people miss intentionally, to play safe, but make it look like they was trying.
Dave
once again ...
There is certain validity in the arguement of lower rated
handicapped players doing things in a game that only
a HIGHER RATED player should be doing. Pool is a progressive
sport, and when you see a 3 making jump shots, or
going 4 rails with good precision for shape on the next
ball, it raises the ire of the better players because they
have a good idea at what level normal players do those
things, and it is usually a higher level than a 3. Plus, if
a 3 can navigate the difficulties of making a good jump
shot, why can they not handle a connect the dot out
on a table. It presents conflicting thoughts to better
players. Perhaps these 3's are learning Pool in an
unstandard way from most players. In the money
world, spots are generated because the better player
counts on the lessor player NOT BEING ABLE to do
certain things, having holes in having a complete game.
I see many players who have a pretty complete game
EXCEPT they always make a logic mistake in the game
which will lose the game for them. When they learn
what their logic error is, they can jump up in game
pretty fast.
There is certain validity in the arguement of lower rated
handicapped players doing things in a game that only
a HIGHER RATED player should be doing. Pool is a progressive
sport, and when you see a 3 making jump shots, or
going 4 rails with good precision for shape on the next
ball, it raises the ire of the better players because they
have a good idea at what level normal players do those
things, and it is usually a higher level than a 3. Plus, if
a 3 can navigate the difficulties of making a good jump
shot, why can they not handle a connect the dot out
on a table. It presents conflicting thoughts to better
players. Perhaps these 3's are learning Pool in an
unstandard way from most players. In the money
world, spots are generated because the better player
counts on the lessor player NOT BEING ABLE to do
certain things, having holes in having a complete game.
I see many players who have a pretty complete game
EXCEPT they always make a logic mistake in the game
which will lose the game for them. When they learn
what their logic error is, they can jump up in game
pretty fast.
Nit said:
I have a big problem granting the assumption you suggest ... I believe that as a pool hall owner your profit motive is much greater than the 'good of the game' motive. Posts like the one below confirm this :
Nit said:
I would guess that the Southern Music Ltd.s VNEA leagues 'invest' a lot into the western Canadian pool scene, perhaps like Teachers Billiards does into your region. They get the support they deserve. I cannot for the life of me see how they will be 'the downfall of pool'. Your criticism of this class of competitor is simply a pool hall owner taking what might be considered 'the high road' in my mind, and it is conveniently also is good for their bottom line.
BTW, you didn't answer my question, you related to Teacherman ? If you are, may I say that your forum demeanour is an improvement over that other screen-name.
Dave
Just trying to stick around. But.....it still doesn't mean Janis is right. 
Follow the money.
And, do you use a pole when you leap (vault) to conclusions.?
Ask those in the know (from St. Louis) how much money I've put into amateur pool without getting an equal return. When I see a bar league match that you'll have a point. Until then, it's rather silly to make conclusions without facts.
Follow the money.
And, do you use a pole when you leap (vault) to conclusions.?
Ask those in the know (from St. Louis) how much money I've put into amateur pool without getting an equal return. When I see a bar league match that you'll have a point. Until then, it's rather silly to make conclusions without facts.
Nit said:Just trying to stick around. But.....it still doesn't mean Janis is right.
Follow the money.
And, do you use a pole when you leap (vault) to conclusions.?
Ask those in the know (from St. Louis) how much money I've put into amateur pool without getting an equal return. When I see a bar league match that you'll have a point. Until then, it's rather silly to make conclusions without facts.
I have opinions, and stated them. The conclusions will be drawn by others. I acknowledged that you may put money into pool in St. Louis. This is one of your points, 'support those who invest', and I have no problem with that. However I pointed out the investment of Southern Music in bar leagues in Western Canada. By your argument they should be supported as well. By another of your arguments supporting bar leagues will lead to the downfall of pool. I still BELIEVE that you speak from a business owners point of view, and not that of the saviour of pool.
You can check out Souther Music at www.smlentertainment.com to see a bar league that invests in the pool scene. Maybe our Canadian bar leagues are just that much better than those seen in the US. Please do not take this as an insult, just a hypothesis. I appreciate that different cities, states/provinces, and countries have different cultures, habits, and attitiudes.
I too hope you stick around NIT.
Dave
dooziexx said:
Just a thought. He may be a valid 3 in one league and a valid 5 in the other for the very reaon he may feel more confidence in one. As far as a national handicap systems, well unless you are regularly playing around the country against many players it is difficult to categorize players. So for national events, I think the BCA does it best - No handicaps.
DaveK said:
I believe we have different definitions of invest. Taking the league fees that include gross and or net profit and reinvesting it is quite different from taking their own money, buying equipment, buying or leasing space and opening a business that is about pool.
Gosh, their name tells you everything you need to know. Yeah, they've probably done a good job with league. So far. Where would they be if pool lost popularity? In the music business I suspect.
Talk about profit incentive.
I think you're on the wrong side. At least your arguement supports me not them.
Now, if you care to discuss the real reasons bar league is bad for pool let me know. It has nothing to do with profit.
I just spent 15 minutes typing my thoughts of billiard room leagues vs. bar leagues and when I went to submit it, it locked up and lost my post! I'm not typing it all again.
IMO, bar leagues are greatly needed, billiard room leagues are greatly needed, but both host different caliber of players. Not all locations have a billiard room close by, but they have plenty of bars. Bar leagues tend to create a working relationship between bar owners, billiard room leagues tend to take other rooms business, thus "eating" yourselves out of business.
There are many pros and cons to both the bar league and the billiard room league. Such as traveling distance, league fees, payouts, HCP system, format, the list goes on and on.
Why not join the two league system concepts? Why not get 6 pool rooms, each pool room get 6 teams (under estimating), that's 36 teams in a league! Play a round robin format, no playoffs, no championship match, FIGHT TO THE FINISH! Each billiard room will have 3 home matches, that's 6 teams and at least 24 players in your room on league night for 35 weeks! The players get an opportunity to play at 6 different billiard rooms, against over 145 different players and all 6 billiard rooms get those players coming thru, each billiard room can profit from the other, not take it from them!
DAN D and I organized our own league, Zim's Rack 8-Ball League in 2005 (as DAN D mentioned)! All the different leagues that Dan and I have played in, this is by far the most comfortable, profitible, accurate and consistent league that we've ever played in! For more info visit www.zimsrack.com
Just my .02,
Zim
IMO, bar leagues are greatly needed, billiard room leagues are greatly needed, but both host different caliber of players. Not all locations have a billiard room close by, but they have plenty of bars. Bar leagues tend to create a working relationship between bar owners, billiard room leagues tend to take other rooms business, thus "eating" yourselves out of business.
There are many pros and cons to both the bar league and the billiard room league. Such as traveling distance, league fees, payouts, HCP system, format, the list goes on and on.
Why not join the two league system concepts? Why not get 6 pool rooms, each pool room get 6 teams (under estimating), that's 36 teams in a league! Play a round robin format, no playoffs, no championship match, FIGHT TO THE FINISH! Each billiard room will have 3 home matches, that's 6 teams and at least 24 players in your room on league night for 35 weeks! The players get an opportunity to play at 6 different billiard rooms, against over 145 different players and all 6 billiard rooms get those players coming thru, each billiard room can profit from the other, not take it from them!
DAN D and I organized our own league, Zim's Rack 8-Ball League in 2005 (as DAN D mentioned)! All the different leagues that Dan and I have played in, this is by far the most comfortable, profitible, accurate and consistent league that we've ever played in! For more info visit www.zimsrack.com
Just my .02,
Zim
Zims Rack said:
Sounds like you've been reading the "Communist Manifesto".
