Avoiding kisses in Three Cushion
- Thread starter Strokeone
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3cPlayer
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Hmm, I don't really understand. I mean you can't use this technique on every single shot. Isn't that a coincidence?
Hello, Of course not. I am speaking particularly of a dead kiss shot where the first object ball is in direct alignment with your cue ball and the corner. By hitting thin the first object ball is deflected the maximum amount away from the cueball and added speed occurs on the cue ball to miss the primary kiss, usually also the secondary kiss. This would be the worst case scenario. In less critical scenarios the system seems to also work well. Raising the butt end of the stick does not preclude a variety of English efffects to compensate for the less than desired hit. In other words: one shoots the shot wrong, maybe too long and then compensates with low english. I play on a smaller table at home, it's a Louis Van Laere, probably listed as a 2 Meter table and the kisses with full size Aramith balls (61.5mm) and the kisses are prolific. I don't have this problem on a full size table. So......Haben Sie mir verstanden?
2 meter table? Really? 6.5 foot table? Wow, that's tiny. I saw some German non-alcoholic beer commercial on YouTube, I think, where they were playing on a very small table, but I couldn't tell exactly what the measurements were. Are they common in Europe?
I could see you'd have to do alot of creative things to avoid kisses with full size balls on a table that size.
I could see you'd have to do alot of creative things to avoid kisses with full size balls on a table that size.
Strokeone said:
What you are referring to is a "check stroke", elevated butt, short bridge and no follow through. This causes the cue ball to come off the ball at a sharper angle than a normal stroke. It is used in a WIDE variety of shots for a wide variety of reasons but it does allow you to, among other things, take less ball to achieve the same return. As a result it can be effective in avoiding kisses.
If you haven't yet, I suggest experimenting with all three of these elements ( bridge length, butt height, and follow through length) to see the profound effect they have taking the same amount of object ball.
All the best,
Joe
If you want to avoid a kiss in a shot that normally has one, you have to change the way you shoot the shot. Sometimes this will be to hit fuller or thinner, sometimes with less spin or more spin. Sometimes with more draw or more follow. Sometimes you need a combination of changes.Strokeone said:
The elevation will usually make the cue ball curve more on the way to the object ball, and that changes your apparent cue ball starting point.
I think there is no such general rule as "elevate and hit thin" to avoid kisses. It would be nice to have a very specific example to discuss, but kisses are very dependent on spin, speed and equipment.
There is no "magic formula" for avoiding kisses. You have to know first whether or not there is a kiss on a shot that you desire to play. Then you need to figure out if there is a way to beat it (thinner hit, different english or fuller hit, different english or different hit and different speed). Obviously, there are many possibilities. On most shots, there is a possibility of beating the kiss, but I don't think it is possible all the time. If you don't think your odds are very good, you need to play a different shot, even if it more difficult. That advice comes from Pedro Piedrabuena, not me.
If I understand your set up. Both cue ball and OB the same distance from the long rail or possibly worse case the CB is further from the long than the OB. Try a thin hit with a rising tip. Reach back on the butt and get a rocking motion where the tip dips on the back stroke and rises on the for stroke. The CB will pass the OB with greater speed. One of the keys to missing kisses is CB and OB are traveling at different speeds. Half ball hits gives you equal speed on both.
Here's the action I'm talking about with an up stroke.
At about 3:15 in this clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tihmp1-T2Ko
Watch as the CB reaches the short rail first. No telling if Seyginer is using an upstroke (the stroke isn't shown) but the action is what you get in this position. The uses of the upstroke was taught to me by Harry Sims and verified by Allen Gilbert when I saw him a couple of years prior to his passing. It was exactly this shot that prompted me to ask Harry. How in the ___ do you get out of that kiss every time? This was the answer.
Try it out. I can see the smile already.
We know what we know.
We know what we don't know.
But we don't know what we don't know.
At about 3:15 in this clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tihmp1-T2Ko
Watch as the CB reaches the short rail first. No telling if Seyginer is using an upstroke (the stroke isn't shown) but the action is what you get in this position. The uses of the upstroke was taught to me by Harry Sims and verified by Allen Gilbert when I saw him a couple of years prior to his passing. It was exactly this shot that prompted me to ask Harry. How in the ___ do you get out of that kiss every time? This was the answer.
Try it out. I can see the smile already.
We know what we know.
We know what we don't know.
But we don't know what we don't know.
So far as I know, there is no normal shot that requires a rising tip. Does anyone have an example shot that cannot be made with a simple, straight-through stroke but can be made with a so-called "rising tip?" I you think you have such a shot, please be specific about the positions of the balls.
As for Sayginer, I think he always comes straight through on his stroke.
3kushn said:
I can confirm that this "upstroke" was indeed taught by Allen (gold) Gilbert and also by Billy Smith from Chicago. I played endless hours with both and both employed this technique for avoiding kisses in certain shots as well as for lengthening fuller hits. The former with a shorter bridge and back hand and a bit more of an abrupt or check stroke, the latter with a longer bridge and back hand and more follow through.
Did it really do more than just a level cue with high english? I think so, or it made me believe it did and the confidence worked.
I've never been very analytical about why stuff works, but I do believe. Whatever the reason and whether it works, I can confirm it as a technique taught to me by at least two top class American players.
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The late, great Adolph Schickelgruber taught his students that the only way to beat that kiss is to shift your weight toward your right foot, tilt your head slightly to the left, shorten your bridge, and use a slip stroke.
Try it out. I can see the smile already.
Mark
Try it out. I can see the smile already.
Mark
mbvl said:
hahaha, I think I might have heard about this, but don't you also have to have 29 cents in your back left pocket, with your elbow pointed directly at Uranus???
Seriously though, many techniques in 3C that sound unusual do work. The height of the butt, the tightness of the grip, length of the bridge etc. Without being taught, I'd of never figured many of them out.
Joe
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Yes, there are various techniques you can use DEPENDING ON THE SHOT, to avoid kisses. But to say that by using one technique you will always avoid the kiss NO MATTER WHAT THE POSITION is preposterous. Perhaps in one situation, there would normally NOT be a kiss, but if you use your technique, you might actually CAUSE a kiss on that particular shot.
Each position is different, and if a kiss cannot be normally avoided, then perhaps a certain technique will work, DEPENDING ON THE SHOT.
Each position is different, and if a kiss cannot be normally avoided, then perhaps a certain technique will work, DEPENDING ON THE SHOT.
jimshovak said:
This goes without saying I would think....the technique I refer to is for very specific shots. Even the SAME technique will get VERY different results depending on factors like distance to the object ball, distance to the rail, speed of the shot, and on and on. Like I say, the players I mentioned taught it as a technique for a fairly small class of specific shots.
I was simply acknowledging that the "rising" tip Bob asked about is a taught technique by some highly pedigreed players. I probably don't have 2% of the knowledge that Bob has, and certainly not enough to participate in a conversation as to it's "physical" merits.
Great to hear people talkin' about 3-cushion.
Joe
Bob I've toiled with the idea that all the upstroke really is, is a "swipe" in an attempt to get more high English, and have thought whether all this technique does, is put the tip higher on the CB via a lower butt height. The jury is still out. But I've tried the shot I mentioned with a straight stroke & extreme high and have more success with the upstroke. I have no idea what else this motion could be doing but sure seems to work. It may just be in my head but confidence is important too.
Jim I didn't mean to insinuate that all kisses can be missed with an upstoke or any other single tecnique. But an upstroke allows me to miss the kiss on the type of shot I described. I do it every single day on this shot and vividly remember Harry stopping the game, setting up the shot I just got kissed out and showing me the upstroke, then making it on the first try. That's why I'm a believer.
At about 3:15 in this clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tihmp1-T2Ko
From junksecret
"Seriously though, many techniques in 3C that sound unusual do work. The height of the butt, the tightness of the grip, length of the bridge etc. Without being taught, I'd of never figured many of them out."
And this is why the game is so great. Give it a try. If you then think this is has no merit great. But please don't just say it's not possible, unless it's been tried. Wasn't it Blomdahl who said of Seyginer. "I'm ? times World Champion and supposed to know what he's doing, but I don't know how he does what he does" or something to that effect.
Jim I didn't mean to insinuate that all kisses can be missed with an upstoke or any other single tecnique. But an upstroke allows me to miss the kiss on the type of shot I described. I do it every single day on this shot and vividly remember Harry stopping the game, setting up the shot I just got kissed out and showing me the upstroke, then making it on the first try. That's why I'm a believer.
At about 3:15 in this clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tihmp1-T2Ko
From junksecret
"Seriously though, many techniques in 3C that sound unusual do work. The height of the butt, the tightness of the grip, length of the bridge etc. Without being taught, I'd of never figured many of them out."
And this is why the game is so great. Give it a try. If you then think this is has no merit great. But please don't just say it's not possible, unless it's been tried. Wasn't it Blomdahl who said of Seyginer. "I'm ? times World Champion and supposed to know what he's doing, but I don't know how he does what he does" or something to that effect.
You can learn how to avoid kisses by practicing on getting them
Sorry for not being exactly constructive here, consider this an intro on "how to avoid kisses AFTER the cue ball has travelled 3 rails"....
I think this can be a fun video to watch just in case you haven't seen it. I filmed this last year during the Sang Lee International Championship.
Semih Sayginer vs Daniel Sanchez playing 3 cushion billiards with only 2 balls on the table:
http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=979
Sorry for not being exactly constructive here, consider this an intro on "how to avoid kisses AFTER the cue ball has travelled 3 rails"....
I think this can be a fun video to watch just in case you haven't seen it. I filmed this last year during the Sang Lee International Championship.Semih Sayginer vs Daniel Sanchez playing 3 cushion billiards with only 2 balls on the table:
http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=979
Perhaps this will have to wait until we are in the same place with a carom table available. I'll ask again: can you describe a position very, very explicitly -- cue ball on the red spot, first ball exactly a diamond from this rail and two and a half diamonds from that rail, etc.? Whether a kiss is present often depends on half-a-ball accuracy or better of placement, and youtube does not show shots well enough to get that accuracy.3kushn said:
I was under the impression that you were saying that the technique will simply "beat all kisses". In my opinion, the "rising tip" may actually lift the cue ball in the air slightly, then strike the object ball causing the cue ball to have a slight delay before continuing. The slight "jump" may actually change the path of the cue ball just enough to avoid the kiss you are referring to. Of course, this is merely conjecture.