Back swing - pause/no pause is focusing on the wrong area of the stroke!

Tin Man

Tin Man

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A beautiful stroke with good timing is critical to high level pool. We all know that rushing the stroke is a common blunder. Unfortunately many people do the wrong things to try to fix it. Say there are three parts of the stroke:

1) The back swing
2) The transition
3) The forward swing

Where most people struggle is rushing the FORWARD STROKE. They jam their cue stick forward which leads to inaccuracy on their aim, tip, and swing speed (all three variables of the shot go haywire!). There are many reasons people do this. Some is because they've never learned the feel of a good swing and so use way more cue speed than necessary to achieve their results. There is also a mental aspect (jamming the cue forward usually stems from a fear of underhitting the shot, i.e. not getting enough movement, not getting enough backspin, etc.). But I'm not here to focus on why this happens. I'm not even here to focus on how to fix it (very hard to discuss without a pool table although I'll try). My main point is to tell people what DOESN'T fix it.

What doesn't fix it is slowing down steps 1 and 2. I'm tired of seeing people rush their forward swing. When they try to fix it it's like they can't stop their cue from jamming forward too fast. Instead what they do is take a super slow back swing, a long pause at the cue ball, then they jam forward from there! Arg!!! No!

I don't care if you take a non-slow-motion back swing. I don't care if you don't pause. All I care about is that the forward swing starts slowly and softly and picks up fluid acceleration through the cue ball. If you start your forward swing calmly then nothing else really matters, and if you don't then trying to make up for it by chalking your cue stick slower or tying your shoe laces slower in the morning isn't going to make up for that.

Now, many of you have never developed a feel for great timing. I'm not pretending I can help through a computer. That's why I don't do zoom lessons, I'd rather you were standing next to me at a table. But if I can give a hint it is this: The right feeling should be as if you're going to shoot SOFTLY to a cue ball that is about 3" PAST where it actually sits. In other words you start your cue soft, but then you accelerate all the way through the cue ball. Your cue will be moving slowly but you will get a solid hit out of it because you are peaking out through the cue ball and all of your cue speed goes into the cue ball. Try that out. Set up stop shots, start your swing like you're going to shoot a drag draw shot (soft enough to lose your slide) but then accelerate to the imaginary cue ball 3" past where the real cue ball is.

If you do it right you will discover that you can move your cue surprisingly slowly. This is because a jam stroke has one burst of power and then decelerates through the cue ball. You have to get your cue moving twice as fast to achieve results with a jam (picture a baseball batter trying to muscle and shove his bat at the ball. We call that a bunt!). Whereas when you let your cue swing it picks up speed all the way through the cue ball and you get all of your cue speed into the cue ball.

OK, as I said, I can't explain the feel of good timing. Maybe someone else can. And I'm not here to debate whether you want to pause or not. I'm just here to tell you that if I had a nickel for every time someone used a slow back swing, paused, and then rushed their forward swing I'd be a wealthy man. And when I hear people debating about the pause I just KNOW they are jerking their cue forward after that pause because they are focused on the wrong part of the swing in my opinion. Hope that helps someone. Happy shooting!
 
Tin Man said:
A beautiful stroke with good timing is critical to high level pool. We all know that rushing the stroke is a common blunder. Unfortunately many people do the wrong things to try to fix it. Say there are three parts of the stroke:

1) The back swing
2) The transition
3) The forward swing

Where most people struggle is rushing the FORWARD STROKE. They jam their cue stick forward which leads to inaccuracy on their aim, tip, and swing speed (all three variables of the shot go haywire!). There are many reasons people do this. Some is because they've never learned the feel of a good swing and so use way more cue speed than necessary to achieve their results. There is also a mental aspect (jamming the cue forward usually stems from a fear of underhitting the shot, i.e. not getting enough movement, not getting enough backspin, etc.). But I'm not here to focus on why this happens. I'm not even here to focus on how to fix it (very hard to discuss without a pool table although I'll try). My main point is to tell people what DOESN'T fix it.

What doesn't fix it is slowing down steps 1 and 2. I'm tired of seeing people rush their forward swing. When they try to fix it it's like they can't stop their cue from jamming forward too fast. Instead what they do is take a super slow back swing, a long pause at the cue ball, then they jam forward from there! Arg!!! No!

I don't care if you take a non-slow-motion back swing. I don't care if you don't pause. All I care about is that the forward swing starts slowly and softly and picks up fluid acceleration through the cue ball. If you start your forward swing calmly then nothing else really matters, and if you don't then trying to make up for it by chalking your cue stick slower or tying your shoe laces slower in the morning isn't going to make up for that.

Now, many of you have never developed a feel for great timing. I'm not pretending I can help through a computer. That's why I don't do zoom lessons, I'd rather you were standing next to me at a table. But if I can give a hint it is this: The right feeling should be as if you're going to shoot SOFTLY to a cue ball that is about 3" PAST where it actually sits. In other words you start your cue soft, but then you accelerate all the way through the cue ball. Your cue will be moving slowly but you will get a solid hit out of it because you are peaking out through the cue ball and all of your cue speed goes into the cue ball. Try that out. Set up stop shots, start your swing like you're going to shoot a drag draw shot (soft enough to lose your slide) but then accelerate to the imaginary cue ball 3" past where the real cue ball is.

If you do it right you will discover that you can move your cue surprisingly slowly. This is because a jam stroke has one burst of power and then decelerates through the cue ball. You have to get your cue moving twice as fast to achieve results with a jam (picture a baseball batter trying to muscle and shove his bat at the ball. We call that a bunt!). Whereas when you let your cue swing it picks up speed all the way through the cue ball and you get all of your cue speed into the cue ball.

OK, as I said, I can't explain the feel of good timing. Maybe someone else can. And I'm not here to debate whether you want to pause or not. I'm just here to tell you that if I had a nickel for every time someone used a slow back swing, paused, and then rushed their forward swing I'd be a wealthy man. And when I hear people debating about the pause I just KNOW they are jerking their cue forward after that pause because they are focused on the wrong part of the swing in my opinion. Hope that helps someone. Happy shooting
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Great post.
 
I try to do this after a slight pause but visualize accelerating all the way to the object ball.
It is still not subconscious for me so I have to think about doing it every time.
The results are very positive when I can remember to do it. I just wish it was automatic TODAY.
I have a couple friends with very slow takebacks and jabbing strokes. I've mentioned it but they don't feel what I see.

Great post.
 
JolietJames said:
I try to do this after a slight pause but visualize accelerating all the way to the object ball.
It is still not subconscious for me so I have to think about doing it every time.
The results are very positive when I can remember to do it. I just wish it was automatic TODAY.
I have a couple friends with very slow takebacks and jabbing strokes. I've mentioned it but they don't feel what I see.

Great post.
Click to expand...
Take a video of them when they dont know your doing it. Then show them. Then they will see what you see.
 
JolietJames said:
I try to do this after a slight pause but visualize accelerating all the way to the object ball.
It is still not subconscious for me so I have to think about doing it every time.
The results are very positive when I can remember to do it. I just wish it was automatic TODAY.
I have a couple friends with very slow takebacks and jabbing strokes. I've mentioned it but they don't feel what I see.

Great post.
Click to expand...
Thats kinda what I do as well. Find the spot I’m aiming at on the obj ball and I picture that’s where my tip is trying to get to, but don’t lunge or steer the tip toward it, just shoot through to that spot. When I actively remember to do that and focus on it I hit the ball real well and almost always make the shot.

It’s strange not to do it every time but I lack discipline.
 
Thanks for a good excuse the next time I go off a couple hundred$ Tin Man. Just been poking it waay too much tonight and can’t play anymore.😂😂😂

…I am going to try this. By the way. Thanks.
 
Great Post! Thanks! Agree that it is the final forward stroke that determines the quality of the overall stroke itself, no matter what someone does in terms of pause, no pause or whatever prior to that forward stroke.

Finding a method that works for oneself to perform the final forward stroke correctly is the key- agreed. I personally always go back to the great player, Joss tour promoter Mike Zuglan's words to me way back in 1991- "Let the stick do the work" - in other words, let the arrow fly from the bow without any thought or physical impediment.

Although you do not desire to dwell on WHY so many folks rush the final forward stroke- if this helps for some, I will say, after years of self discovery, for me, and perhaps many of us, the rushed forward stoke usually becomes most prominent when we attach too much importance to a particular shot. In other words, when we allow negative thoughts about a shot's level of difficulty or the game situation to create a rise in emotion levels that manifests itself with a physical over- reaction - a rushed stroke.

Managing that fight or flight emotion in our mind by allowing the thought to flow through and then approach the table with an '" every shot is given equal weight mentality " allows one to even out their temperament throughout an entire match- it really does level out the stroke as well.

I know that you are focusing on just the physical aspect of the forward stroke- I don't want to hijack your post, but I just don't think one can "cure" the rushed stroke syndrome without addressing the root cause- for many, if not most, the root cause lies in their mind, how they manage the emotions that will always creep up in competition, Fix that, at least start by being aware of the root cause, and the fluid forward strokes will come much more regular for you- guaranteed!
 
I'll post a slightly different point of view ... European players have been using an extended pause at the backstroke for many years. And according to so many on here, European players are in general much better than American players. Especially when it comes to fundamentals.

Maybe there's more to the pause then you are admitting to yourselves? The pause at the back does not have to be a long one with like for instance, Chris Melling's. It only has to be 1/2 to 1 second to allow for a smooth transition.
When I added the pause to my backstroke, I pretty much eliminated any jerky forward motion. The slow steady backswing, combined with the pause, give me the feeling that I am not in a hurry to hit the ball. My forward stroke is a lot smoother now.

When you are practicing though, you need to exaggerate it, so it becomes ingrained in your psyche. When you're actually playing, you're not thinking about it... it just happens.

Most Snooker players have a nice pause at the back stroke. Watch Ronnie O'Sullivan play. Watch this video they concentrate strictly on his forearm. It's not an extended pause, but it is very noticeable.

 
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buckshotshoey said:
I'll post a slightly different point of view ... European players have been using an extended pause at the backstroke for many years. And according to so many on here, European players are in general much better than American players. Especially when it comes to fundamentals.

Maybe there's more to the pause then you are admitting to yourselves? The pause at the back does not have to be a long one with like for instance, Chris Melling's. It only has to be 1/2 to 1 second to allow for a smooth transition.
When I added the pause to my backstroke, I pretty much eliminated any jerky forward motion. The slow steady backswing, combined with the pause, give me the feeling that I am not in a hurry to hit the ball. My forward stroke is a lot smoother now.

When you are practicing though, you need to exaggerate it, so it becomes ingrained in your psyche. When you're actually playing, you're not thinking about it... it just happens.

Most Snooker players have a nice pause at the back stroke. Watch Ronnie O'Sullivan play. Watch this video they concentrate strictly on his forearm. It's not an extended pause, but it is very noticeable.

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The European Snooker players are not the best pool players. And the vast majority of the top pool players in the world don't use any type of extended pause.

Below are the top 10 pool players in the world by fargorate. 70% of them use no pause, 20% have a kind of 'lull' (not an extended pause but a kind of slow-motion transition), and 10% of them (exactly one) has an actual real pause built into their swing. I am not making the case that a pause can't be beautifully implemented into a world class stroke. But I totally reject the idea that it is a requirement of top level pool.

It's a cool story, that Snooker is a more technically demanding game and therefor they are the best cueists in the world and therefor we should model ourselves after them so we have the same transcendent technique. That's a fun narrative that makes people feel superior. It just doesn't match reality. So we get to ask ourselves, do we want to be smugly superior, or do we want to put our focus on what will make us better?

Filler - No
Shane - Lull
Shaw - No
Zheng - Yes
Orcullo - No
Pin Yi Ko - No
Chang - Lull
Biado - No
Sanchez-Ruiz - No
Kaci - No

Buckshot, I appreciate the thoughtful post. Again, there are players who really benefit from the rhythm of a nice pause. If it works for you then I fully support it. I maintain my belief that the priority is a calm accelerating forward swing.
 
mikemosconi said:
Great Post! Thanks! Agree that it is the final forward stroke that determines the quality of the overall stroke itself, no matter what someone does in terms of pause, no pause or whatever prior to that forward stroke.

Finding a method that works for oneself to perform the final forward stroke correctly is the key- agreed. I personally always go back to the great player, Joss tour promoter Mike Zuglan's words to me way back in 1991- "Let the stick do the work" - in other words, let the arrow fly from the bow without any thought or physical impediment.

Although you do not desire to dwell on WHY so many folks rush the final forward stroke- if this helps for some, I will say, after years of self discovery, for me, and perhaps many of us, the rushed forward stoke usually becomes most prominent when we attach too much importance to a particular shot. In other words, when we allow negative thoughts about a shot's level of difficulty or the game situation to create a rise in emotion levels that manifests itself with a physical over- reaction - a rushed stroke.

Managing that fight or flight emotion in our mind by allowing the thought to flow through and then approach the table with an '" every shot is given equal weight mentality " allows one to even out their temperament throughout an entire match- it really does level out the stroke as well.

I know that you are focusing on just the physical aspect of the forward stroke- I don't want to hijack your post, but I just don't think one can "cure" the rushed stroke syndrome without addressing the root cause- for many, if not most, the root cause lies in their mind, how they manage the emotions that will always creep up in competition, Fix that, at least start by being aware of the root cause, and the fluid forward strokes will come much more regular for you- guaranteed!
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Thank you.

Yes, there are many mental reasons why people rush the stroke. I think one is what I refer to as the 'slot machine' problem.

See, there are three variables on each shot: Aim, tip, and swing speed. When most people get down on a ball they are all spinning around like reels on a slot machine. They have their aim right but their tip is off. They get their tip right and start getting their swing speed dialed in. Then they check their aim again and it's off, drat! Now they adjust that again but their tip has moved. It's like everything is moving in and out of focus. Suddenly they sense all three are lined up! Great! Now they need to SHOOT FAST BEFORE THEY LOSE THE FEELING! This is horrible!

What I teach is to break these things down into two pieces: We lock our aim and our tip, then we deliver our stroke. Two parts. It's like we are playing scotch doubles with ourselves. The first guy's job is to get everything locked so our aim is good, our tip is good, and all we need is a perfect swing to make everything go perfect. Great. First guy's job is done. This is where we pause at the cue ball. That is the passing of the baton from the aimer/tipper to the stroker. Now it's the second person's job. The stroker. Their job is to just deliver a nice, calm, accelerating swing.

If the stroker is still worried about making the shot or getting shape they will have a hard time delivering a smooth swing. It's too late for all of that. The shot was either made or missed when the aimer did their job and locked in. Position was either attained or missed when the first person locked in their tip. The stroker can only deliver a good stroke and see if person one did their job right. But if the stroker is worried about person one, or tries to force or steer the stroke because they don't trust person one, well, all they can do is make it worse. It's too late. Just trust your partner and swing the cue.

One way I cement this is to have people close their eyes after the pause in the cue ball. They can't 'slot machine' it. They have to totally lock in the aim/tip (as well as the FEEL of the shot), totally lock those up in their mind. Then they close their eyes. Now when they deliver the stroke they can't be thinking about aim or tip. All they can do is focus on a smooth swing. This forces them to get a feel of this process.

So I agree there are many mental reasons for a poor stroke. You mentioned lack of comfort with a shot and I agree. I added another mental reason in this post which is hurrying up to shoot before you loose the feel of the shot. In my original post I mentioned the fear of coming up short which leads to muscling the shot. Then there is the adverse reaction to pressure, where people rush to get it over with because they are uncomfortable and trigger some fight or flight response. Many stroke errors do indeed have mental origins and I think it would be foolish not to work on the mental game and understand how one impacts the other.

At the same time though, a great physical game can take pressure off your mental game. If you have ball in hand position on the money ball, for example, you won't feel the same pressure as if you have a testy cut from frozen on the side rail. To minimize the impact of pressure we have to improve our mental game AND our physical game together.
 
Good post but I wouldn't say you hit this one out of the park, but more like a double. I think you're downplaying what slowing down your backstroke can accomplish. I'll admit you're clearly right in that it's the forward money stroke that is most important and ensuring that you have a slow, steady, and smooth accelerating one is -- paramount. But how does a player go about doing that? You did a great job instructing us on this. However, I think your concept is quite advanced, so if a player is struggling with the rhythm of their stroke, and have a herky-jerky delivery, I'd say step one is to slow it ALL down. Here it's the backstroke that seems WAY easier to slow than the forward one.

Now I've messed around with your tip in the past and it didn't quite click, so maybe this piece is one of the many that separates me from the players above (such as yourself and countless others) so I'm not ruling this out as potential piece of gold, I just think there's a huge benefit to the slow backstroke. The correlation between great players and slow or even very slow backstroke is pretty strong.
 
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BasementDweller said:
Good post but I wouldn't say you hit this one out of the park, but more like a double. I think you're downplaying what slowing down your backstroke can accomplish. I'll admit you're clearly right in that it's the forward money stroke that is most important and ensuring that you have a slow, steady, and smooth accelerating one is -- paramount. But how does a player go about doing that? You did a great job instructing us on this. However, I think your concept is quite advanced, so if a player is struggling with the rhythm of their stroke, and have a herky-jerky delivery, I'd say step one is to slow is ALL down. Here it's the backstroke that seems WAY easier to slow than the forward one.

Now I've messed around with your tip in the past and it didn't quite click, so maybe this piece is one of the many that separates me from the players above (such as yourself and countless others) so I'm not ruling this out as potential piece of gold, I just think there's a huge benefit to the slow backstroke. The correlation people great players and slow or even very slow backstroke is pretty strong.
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I've never seen someone with a jerky backstroke that then uses a beautiful, smooth, accelerating forward stroke. But most people I see screw around with slowing down their backstrokes, pausing, and doing all of this pretty stuff still jam their cue forward.

What would you have me say? I'm trying to bring that to people's attention.

I agree a smooth back stroke is advantageous. I also agree we need to play good position, and get enough sleep. My post isn't dismissing any other part of an effective pool game. I am just trying to focus on one tiny piece of the game (the forward stroke) and explain that it is important, and most people don't do well with it despite their attempts to imitate Ronnie O'Sullivan.
 
Jeremy Jones says that the pause should be at the cue ball just before the final stroke (final back and forward stroke). He says most professional pool player do this including Efren (and his prodigy Ronnie Alcano) who has a unique pump stroke before his final stroke. Mika Immonen is one of the players without a pause and JJ seems to think that's a weakness.

As a trapshooter I believe it makes perfect sense as it basically tells the brain you are ready for your final stroke. It's more of a mental preparation than a physical thing related to your stroke.
 
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VVP said:
Jeremy Jones says that the pause should be at the cue ball just before the final stroke (final back and forward stroke). He says most professional pool player do this including Efren (and his prodigy Ronnie Alcano) who has a unique pump stroke before his final stroke. Mika Immonen is one of the players without a pause and JJ seems to think that's a weakness.

As a trapshooter I believe it makes perfect sense as it basically tells the brain you are read for your final shot. It more of a mental preparation than a physical thing.
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We're talking about different things.

Most top players do use a pause at the cue ball. This is during the transition from the aim/tip guy to the stroke guy (referenced in an earlier post above). I agree with JJ.

Some players use a pause at the back of their practice swings. This is during the transition from the back swing to the forward swing.

Both have merit. Neither will prevent a jerky forward swing which is what I'm focused on in this thread.
 
Tin Man said:
I've never seen someone with a jerky backstroke that then uses a beautiful, smooth, accelerating forward stroke. But most people I see screw around with slowing down their backstrokes, pausing, and doing all of this pretty stuff still jam their cue forward.

What would you have me say? I'm trying to bring that to people's attention.

I agree a smooth back stroke is advantageous. I also agree we need to play good position, and get enough sleep. My post isn't dismissing any other part of an effective pool game. I am just trying to focus on one tiny piece of the game (the forward stroke) and explain that it is important, and most people don't do well with it despite their attempts to imitate Ronnie O'Sullivan.
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It's not what I would have you say, it's what I wouldn't have you say :)

I wouldn't say this:
"What doesn't fix it is slowing down steps 1 and 2. I'm tired of seeing people rush their forward swing. When they try to fix it it's like they can't stop their cue from jamming forward too fast. Instead what they do is take a super slow back swing, a long pause at the cue ball, then they jam forward from there! Arg!!! No!"

I'd say it's analogous to pitching in that it's much easier to focus on the set position and the finish position. So if a pitcher starts in the right place and finishes in the right place they can move on to tinkering with what happens between those points.

Same thing with a pool stroke. If a player is rushing the final delivery. It seems logical that the first step would be to slow down the backstroke. Focusing on forward delivery is much more difficult. A player really needs to ensure his cue is positioned best to deliver the cue smoothly, and here I can think of no better starting position than a completely still one.

Maybe I'm just reading too much into your post but that just seems logical to me.
 
To clarify...

Using a pause at the end of the backstroke ensures you are starting from zero on the final delivery.

Adding more....

So if you start from zero, it's very difficult to have a decelerating stroke on contact and it's much easier to do what you're proposing here -- that being a slow motion beginning to the forward stroke (my words). Without the pause, it's much easier to start the cue forward too fast and contact the cue with less than optimal speed.
 
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BasementDweller said:
To clarify...

Using a pause at the end of the backstroke ensures you are starting from zero on the final delivery.
Click to expand...

I totally agree that fixing a rushed stroke it is a complex subject. You mention slowing down the back swing, and/or utilizing a pause. Someone else talked about mental causes of rushed motions and how we can relax our minds to relax our bodies. All of this is valid. But my original post wasn't about fixing the rushed forward swing. I even said "I'm not here to focus on why this happens. I'm not even here to focus on how to fix it (very hard to discuss without a pool table although I'll try)."

I'm here to IDENTIFY the issue. The first step of solving a problem is knowing that it exists. I am here to help with the first step. My point, BD, is that most people don't realize they have a problem. Those who have worked on their fundamentals have a smooth back swing, a good hesitation and transition, then they lunge forward.

So my point is this: The test of good cuing is the forward stroke. If you have a slow starting smooth accelerating forward stroke then all is well. If not, then you can go on and work on everything else, physically and mentally, that leads to this. Most people inaccurately diagnose their stroke as 'good' because they do steps one and two right and don't even see the problem. That is the specific issue I'm fighting here.
 
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