Balabushka

[mikemosconi]

Pretty much.

I have an old timer friend who has a pretty ridiculous guitar collection. He has no reason to ever recover the money he spent on the guitars. He's rich, and he bought them to purely enjoy. He said he doesn't care what happens to them when he dies. Kids can sell em, keep em, burn em.

I imagine a lot of "priceless" cues end up the same.

Although I certainly agree that some people may not care what happens to a very fine collection of anything that they amassed over time- I honestly believe that the vast majority of people fortunate enough to have a nice collection of high end anything truly do care where their possessions end up and do make plans for the disposal or gifting of such items as the collector begins to age out.

I truly care where anything that I own of substantial value or sentiment ends up someday, and I definitely hope that some of my higher end cues, etc are desired and used by my two sons and maybe perhaps some grand children. My mind just does not wrap around the idea of cherishing a hobby or collection for a lifetime and then just not caring, at say, age 80 or so, where any of the stuff ends up.

I think that the smartest thing to do is just ASK friends, relatives, direct family members, etc. what items they would like to have and would promise to safeguard / utilize/etc. , anything that no one wants- I will try and find the right home for them before it is just too late for me.

" Being rich", having some wealth, in my mind, has nothing to do with discarding your lifetime of enjoyment. MOST people who have wealth- have it because they did not discard things of value in any sense---that mind set usually does not leave you when it comes to your most valued possessions.

 

[mikemosconi]

I understand your point too. I didn't quite understand the introduction of analogies to other random correlations because the discussion started around just age. The age of 60 was simply my guess as a decent starting point in a hypothetical bet to one side or the other of 60 (the over / under). I stated I would take the over (that's just me, others may take the under...and maybe they would be correct). I don't believe I ever stated in absolutes the average age for Bushka owners was "60". If I did, then you would be correct, I would have no way on planet earth of knowing that. Similarly, you also would have no way on planet earth to definitively state an age either.

If we are going share anecdotal evidence from personal experience / observation, I personally know a few dozen current owners of Bushkas and most are older gentleman well into their 60s and beyond. I agree though, the exact average age will never be known for certain - it's just forum conversation focused on sharing our thoughts and beliefs on the subject. You undoubtedly know way more about pool cues and cue collecting than myself, but that doesn't stop me from having my own experiences, opinions and beliefs. That diversity of opinions and experiences is what makes forums like this interesting.

I think you're sensitive on the subject cuz you're sitting on a gazillion dollars' worth of collectible cues. Don't worry, while the number of collectors may be shrinking, it's a big world and there will always be collectors - both young an old.

I"m 72, I was in pool halls starting in 1968/69. -- GB died in 1975. Guys who were around pool a lot from the mid 60s to the mid to late 70s all had knowledge of George's cues as being the most desired, until Gus's cues caught on as well. Back then, for many reasons, some of us never got our hands on one of the prized cues. However, those who aged with the game and , perhaps became more financially successful, those guys desired that Holy Grail, as many people do who follow many different sports/games as a hobby.

It is not a random number at all- I think that 65+ to early- mid 80s would be the age where most GB cues reside or had passed through their hands.

It is not just the cue, or the maker, most of the collecting passion is identifying with the era itself with regard to the pool scene of 1960s into the 70s- --if you never walked into a room in that time period- then you just won't understand. If you never walked up a flight or down a flight of stairs to hear ONLY the sound of the balls clicking just as you approached the door , then you won't understand. If you never opened a room door where the ONLY light was the lights above the tables, then you won't understand. If you never walked into a room with an old guy sitting high up behind a platformed desk with a mechanical time/date stamp machine to check you in or out of your game time- then you just don't understand. If you are comfortable with smoke free rooms, full of loud music, video games, gourmet food, and women-- then you just won't ever understand what 1960s to mid 1970s pool was like for most who played back then. For many, the cue is their lasting connection, if it is not a GB, then it is probably something with four points and notched pearl diamonds.

 

[rexus31]

was that supposed to be the cue he used or just one of his cues that has that writing on it.

i only ask because i dont remember him playing ever with a cue like that.

The actual cue he used to run 526. Denny got if from Mosconi's wife.

 

[Benelli]

Having said already that I intuitively understand what you are saying.
I would also say I have no way on Planet Earth to understand and agree with the number 60.
Pulled from somewhere, but I am clueless where you got it.

What percentage of Bushka owners are right-handed?
How many are married?
How many take their cue to a poolroom?
How many are women?
How many are over 180 pounds?
How many live east of the Mississippi?
How many Bushka owners also own a Szamboti?
How many have been to Valley Forge at least once?
How many Bushkas have been sold since 2020 Covid started?
How many…….
Again, if you hear me you know I get your point. Just find declarative statements fuzzy.
People use your argument with sports cars. Have you followed Mecum?
……………………………………. Guns.
…………………………………..…Coins.
………………………………………Stamps. Rare pool tables. Etc….not exceptions. Really not.
Btw, I sold a 1995 Josswest a couple hours ago for $12,000 to a fine young man.

Will Prout

I want to buy a Joss West, and I'm a fine... Oldish man!

 

[Benelli]

It is not just the cue, or the maker, most of the collecting passion is identifying with the era itself with regard to the pool scene of 1960s into the 70s- --if you never walked into a room in that time period- then you just won't understand.

So I'm Gen-X, I started playing in college, never once walked into one of these storied pool rooms.

Yet I fucking love cues, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the premise you laid out.

Quite simply cues are, in and of themselves, a form of art. That art spans from the lowest KaoKao Steve Mizark all the way up to Gina's and Bushkas. And that is why I collect and also why I collect certain makers and types of cues over others.

Now having said that I do have two cues that belonged to know road players and their is something special about those cues. Not because they remind me of what you described but because when I hold them, when I play with them those cues speak to me differently than any of my other cues. Something of those past owners seeped into those cues and I feel a connection to them through the game.

I have found myself now chasing cues with stories over highly artistic or cues that are perceived to hold better value long term (looking at you Black Boar...).

These are the cues I want to own now.

 

[mikemosconi]

Everyone finds passion in collecting for different reasons for sure. A person’s age often defines the root of their passion in collecting due to their past personal experiences.

 

[maha]

The actual cue he used to run 526. Denny got if from Mosconi's wife.

a real treasure find for him. and likley the original cue used.
but for resale if he ever does it might take true verification.

he probably put it away after running the balls in a few years to save it or whatever. as i said, ive never seen him use it. but that was for me was some what later on.
but i assume its a custom rambo as thats the cues he used before george made some for him.

 

[fjk]

I"m 72, I was in pool halls starting in 1968/69. -- GB died in 1975. Guys who were around pool a lot from the mid 60s to the mid to late 70s all had knowledge of George's cues as being the most desired, until Gus's cues caught on as well. Back then, for many reasons, some of us never got our hands on one of the prized cues. However, those who aged with the game and , perhaps became more financially successful, those guys desired that Holy Grail, as many people do who follow many different sports/games as a hobby.

It is not a random number at all- I think that 65+ to early- mid 80s would be the age where most GB cues reside or had passed through their hands.

It is not just the cue, or the maker, most of the collecting passion is identifying with the era itself with regard to the pool scene of 1960s into the 70s- --if you never walked into a room in that time period- then you just won't understand. If you never walked up a flight or down a flight of stairs to hear ONLY the sound of the balls clicking just as you approached the door , then you won't understand. If you never opened a room door where the ONLY light was the lights above the tables, then you won't understand. If you never walked into a room with an old guy sitting high up behind a platformed desk with a mechanical time/date stamp machine to check you in or out of your game time- then you just don't understand. If you are comfortable with smoke free rooms, full of loud music, video games, gourmet food, and women-- then you just won't ever understand what 1960s to mid 1970s pool was like for most who played back then. For many, the cue is their lasting connection, if it is not a GB, then it is probably something with four points and notched pearl diamonds.

Yep, when I was a young man I drooled and fantasized about owning a Gus or Bushka. As soon as I could afford one is when I was finally able to scratch that itch that bothered me for decades. It was kind of a bucket list thing for me. Too bad I'm too old to use it though. Doesn't matter.

 

[Benelli]

Everyone finds passion in collecting for different reasons for sure. A person’s age often defines the root of their passion in collecting due to their past personal experiences.

Completely agree but this is where cues can shift from a percentage of collectors who collect for the reasons you described to an even larger potential market of collectors who view then through the same lense I do.

I keep leaning on the ICCS guys that they have a greater responsibility to promote the art form for future generations than just a weekend for small group of collectors to hang out and find new stock.

Now that's a pretty heavy burden to put on three dudes, and to be fair it is a burden that needs to be spread across many. But it is what we have to do if we want to make this hobby more mainstream and less niche as one type/segment of collectors passes away.

When you go to the MOMA and look at a Pollock your appreciation is not based on a collective memory or shared experience it's based on your ability to look at that canvas and see large and small elements that speak to you. It's because you can look at the canvas and understand the creation process and appreciate the genius that it took to create.

I want people to have a similar experience and feels when they look at a Ginacue as they do when they look at that Pollock for the exact same reasons.

 

[fjk]

I want people to have a similar experience and feels when they look at a Ginacue as they do when they look at that Pollack for the exact same rereasons.

Who you calling a Pollack? I'm Slovak!

 

[Benelli]

Who you calling a Pollack? I'm Slovak!

A Pollack, a Slovak, and Kojak walk into a bar...

Stupid auto correct on my phone felt a fish was more correct than a painter...

 

[ibuycues]

I understand your point too. I didn't quite understand the introduction of analogies to other random correlations because the discussion started around just age. The age of 60 was simply my guess as a decent starting point in a hypothetical bet to one side or the other of 60 (the over / under). I stated I would take the over (that's just me, others may take the under...and maybe they would be correct). I don't believe I ever stated in absolutes the average age for Bushka owners was "60". If I did, then you would be correct, I would have no way on planet earth of knowing that. Similarly, you also would have no way on planet earth to definitively state an age either.

If we are going share anecdotal evidence from personal experience / observation, I personally know a few dozen current owners of Bushkas and most are older gentleman well into their 60s and beyond. I agree though, the exact average age will never be known for certain - it's just forum conversation focused on sharing our thoughts and beliefs on the subject. You undoubtedly know way more about pool cues and cue collecting than myself, but that doesn't stop me from having my own experiences, opinions and beliefs. That diversity of opinions and experiences is what makes forums like this interesting.

I think you're sensitive on the subject cuz you're sitting on a gazillion dollars' worth of collectible cues. Don't worry, while the number of collectors may be shrinking, it's a big world and there will always be collectors .

Uh, no, not sensitive in the least. It would shock you if you knew how good cues have been to me. Always buy right. Always buy one you could move quickly. Keep track of market conditions at all times. Update entire portfolio quarterly.

For every collectible of any sort that I own, I developed a program that captures:
Category:
Description:
Date Purchased:
Purchase Price:
Any Restoration Costs: (for cues, grading cards, comics, etc.
Total Costs.
Estimated Current Market Value
Market Value - Total Cost = Profit
Do (electronic) summation of categories.
Voila
I’ve had this in place (much more than this recap) since the mid 1980s.

I have covered this many, many times with collectors over the years. Even if the collection is small, not diversified or high in value. Just good sense.

I hope this offers a bit more insight.
Will Prout

 

[cueman]

What happened to Denny Glenn’s collection of Balabushka’s? Would love to buy one if the price was right.

Is $15,000 in your budget?

 

[fjk]

Uh, no, not sensitive in the least. It would shock you if you knew how good cues have been to me. Always buy right. Always buy one you could move quickly. Keep track of market conditions at all times. Update entire portfolio quarterly.

For every collectible of any sort that I own, I developed a program that captures:
Category:
Description:
Date Purchased:
Purchase Price:
Any Restoration Costs: (for cues, grading cards, comics, etc.
Total Costs.
Estimated Current Market Value
Market Value - Total Cost = Profit
Do (electronic) summation of categories.
Voila
I’ve had this in place (much more than this recap) since the mid 1980s.

I have covered this many, many times with collectors over the years. Even if the collection is small, not diversified or high in value. Just good sense.

I hope this offers a bit more insight.
Will Prout

Doing something similar for my modest collection has been on my to-do list for a while now. I would feel bad if the ol' lady had to go through that hassle herself without any guidance at all.

 

[outrider1]

I understand your point too. I didn't quite understand the introduction of analogies to other random correlations because the discussion started around just age. The age of 60 was simply my guess as a decent starting point in a hypothetical bet to one side or the other of 60 (the over / under). I stated I would take the over (that's just me, others may take the under...and maybe they would be correct). I don't believe I ever stated in absolutes the average age for Bushka owners was "60". If I did, then you would be correct, I would have no way on planet earth of knowing that. Similarly, you also would have no way on planet earth to definitively state an age either.

If we are going share anecdotal evidence from personal experience / observation, I personally know a few dozen current owners of Bushkas and most are older gentleman well into their 60s and beyond. I agree though, the exact average age will never be known for certain - it's just forum conversation focused on sharing our thoughts and beliefs on the subject. You undoubtedly know way more about pool cues and cue collecting than myself, but that doesn't stop me from having my own experiences, opinions and beliefs. That diversity of opinions and experiences is what makes forums like this interesting.

I think you're sensitive on the subject cuz you're sitting on a gazillion dollars' worth of collectible cues. Don't worry, while the number of collectors may be shrinking, it's a big world and there will always be collectors - both young an old.

I have no feelings on the cue,1 way or the other. Never shot with it either. The cue is 57" and I admire the wood choice and the overall workmanship of the piece, that's all.

 

[Benelli]

Uh, no, not sensitive in the least. It would shock you if you knew how good cues have been to me. Always buy right. Always buy one you could move quickly. Keep track of market conditions at all times. Update entire portfolio quarterly.

For every collectible of any sort that I own, I developed a program that captures:
Category:
Description:
Date Purchased:
Purchase Price:
Any Restoration Costs: (for cues, grading cards, comics, etc.
Total Costs.
Estimated Current Market Value
Market Value - Total Cost = Profit
Do (electronic) summation of categories.
Voila
I’ve had this in place (much more than this recap) since the mid 1980s.

I have covered this many, many times with collectors over the years. Even if the collection is small, not diversified or high in value. Just good sense.

I hope this offers a bit more insight.
Will Prout

What you have essentially done is portfolio diversification with what are known as alternative investments. The reason cues have been so good to you is that, for the most part, you were buying when prices were lower and more stable than they are today. You had the benefit of being close to several makers, which allowed you to build out sets of cues with specific styles and materials. And this approach was not only prudent but also leaned into the passion you also had for the hobby.

An approach, as you pointed out, was replicated across your other hobby types. Sadly, someone attempting this today is going to deal with a much starker reality where the cost of new cues and the rate of appreciation over time will be nowhere near the gains you have realized with yours. In fact prices right now feel almost unsustainable, which is another one of the factors hindering new collectors from entering the market. I've only been able to buy cues from established makers when they feel sorry for me and offer discounts of up to 50% of their normal price. I like to think I have taken a page out of the Prout book by commissioning cues from young, unknown makers that I think have talent and longevity in the space but that has its own limitations due to their ability to work with certain cue styles and materials and the type of product that will be ultimately turned out.

I would not advise anyone to approach cues as an alternative investment group anymore unless you had a way to find collectors in their 80's and 90s who were looking to fire-sell their collections, because you just can't build up a solid enough portfolio of cues across the desired builders who are going to see actually appreciation. That ship has sailed...

I keep holding out hope that there is on the horizon a great die-off coming, and many collections are about to be parted out and sold off. On top of that you have random people in the mid to late 80's that have one-off cues like a Bushka or a Szamboti but not an entire collections and they are looking to sell at much more modest gains over what they paid 20 to 30 years ago when they bought their cues. There are always going to be "whale" cues that belonged to great pros or famous people that will shatter the curve, but for the most par,t I think we're going to see a steady decline in the value of cues made in the 60's and 70's that will also start to impact cues made in 80's while anything made in the last 20 years is going to see slight to modest appreciation. But less value gain than what you could generate in the stock market or god help us, plain old certificates of deposit...