Balke-Collender 4-veneer cue

[runscott]

I just received an old 1-piece Balke-Collender cue in the mail that has four veneers which appear to be the same colors as a Titlist, and the lengths and positioning of the points are exactly the same as my 1-piece Hoppe Titlist. The only difference in the two cues is that one has a Balke-Collender label on it. The label is green with red field (1926-39). Is it possible that this is a pre-Hoppe Titlist?

 

[Hal]

I bought a Brunswick Balke-Collender pool table one time and it came with 8 original cues. Some were missing tips, dinged up, etc. But overall they were in fairly nice shape. I sold the pool table a few years later and gave the cues away with it. I wish I had them back. I also had the original balls. Or at least they looked old enough to be original.

I more than tripled my money on the deal, but I'd still like to have those items back.

 

[TATE]

I just received an old 1-piece Balke-Collender cue in the mail that has four veneers which appear to be the same colors as a Titlist, and the lengths and positioning of the points are exactly the same as my 1-piece Hoppe Titlist. The only difference in the two cues is that one has a Balke-Collender label on it. The label is green with red field (1926-39). Is it possible that this is a pre-Hoppe Titlist?

Yes, your cue is among a BBC lineage that ended up producing the Titlist.

As far as I know, the color combination of the Titlist started even earlier, with the rosewood Model 265 (26 1/2) in the 1910 time period. I have a BBC 26 1/2 with the mother of pearl wedge butt and a red and gold BBC decal from 1910 that has what is very close to the Titlist colors.

The Titlist colors were used on a number of early Brunswicks. The cue that immediately preceded the Titlist was called the Carom King and it was introduced around 1940 based on these colors. It was a one piece cue. The decal label carried the name "Carom King".

It was renamed the "Titlist" a few years later. The distinguishing features were the Willie Hoppe signature burned into the foreearm, a green decal label on the butt that said "Willie Hoppe Titlist Cue", and a buckhorn ferrule.

I will post some photos in a little while.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Here are some Brunswicks.

from the bottom up:


The bottom cue is the 26 1/2 from about 1910 - the veneers are faded but they are about the same color as the Titlist.

Next up is a Rambow from the 1950's.

Next up is a Titlist from the 1940's - a one piece cue.

Next up (top cue) is a Willie Hoppe Professional from the 1950's.

The colors seem to get more vivid as time goes on, and the veneers a little thicker.

Chris

 

[runscott]

...

The colors seem to get more vivid as time goes on, and the veneers a little thicker....

Chris

Chris, this brings up the question: "What IS a Titllist?" Is it just a re-name of an already-existing 4-veneer cue that Brunswick had been producing for 30 years?

I have a 1941 Brunswick catalog which introduces the Willie Hoppe Titlist cues (including the 2-piece Professional) as "new".

I was told that my cue is a 26 1/2, but the Blue Book describes those as 2-veneer. I have also heard that the Titlist might pre-date the Hoppe, but based on the information you provided, it is really meaningless if it is simply a re-name of a basic 4-veneer cue that had evolved over time.

 

[Barbara]

I have a BBC 26 1/2 with the mother of pearl wedge butt and a red and gold BBC decal from 1910 that has what is very close to the Titlist colors.

I will post some photos in a little while.

Chris

I hate you!!!

Barbara

 

[TATE]

Chris, this brings up the question: "What IS a Titllist?" Is it just a re-name of an already-existing 4-veneer cue that Brunswick had been producing for 30 years?

I have a 1941 Brunswick catalog which introduces the Willie Hoppe Titlist cues (including the 2-piece Professional) as "new".

I was told that my cue is a 26 1/2, but the Blue Book describes those as 2-veneer. I have also heard that the Titlist might pre-date the Hoppe, but based on the information you provided, it is really meaningless if it is simply a re-name of a basic 4-veneer cue that had evolved over time.

I would like to correct something I said earlier. the Carom King was introduced in the 1930's, I believe late 1930's and renamed the "Willie Hoppe Titlist" in 1940 or 1941.

I am not an expert on Brunswick's or their history. I've just picked up bits and pieces. There is some info in the Billiards Encyclopedia but you have to sift through it.

Really, the fundamental difference between your cue and the Carom King is just the name and the decal. Before naming the cues, like Challenger, Master Stroke, etc., they had model numbers.

I am pretty sure yours is a 26 1/2 (Model 265) and I know they came in a wide range of veneers. I've seen different colors, ebony, different woods, etc. Mine has the MOP wedge name plate.

The "Titlist" is just what you said - introduced in 1941 based on the basic "Carom King" cue, but with the Willie Hoppe stamped on the forearm and the Titlist decal. The basic Titlist colors had been produced for many years in various forms.

I also have an early Willie Hoppe Professional with a black fiber joint collar, the forerunner of todays phenolic linen. (I couldn't find it for the photo). They used this because brass was in short supply due to WWII.

What we have come to refer to as the "Titlist" is the cue made famous by the popularity of these designs. When Balabushka and Palmer started converting these cues, they were also on the map and in high demand.

I had done a web page a while ago to show what a Willie Hoppe Titlist blank looked like before it was made into a cue. I have a couple of the old, unfinished blanks that were just rough turned.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Titlist.html

Chris

 

[TATE]

I hate you!!!

Barbara

Hey you! If you come to the Left Coast, you ought to get ahold of me so you can come over and try a few of them out!

Chris

 

[runscott]

I had done a web page a while ago to show what a Willie Hoppe Titlist blank looked like before it was made into a cue. I have a couple of the old, unfinished blanks that were just rough turned.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Titlist.html

Chris

Thanks Chris - that clears up some questions I've had for a long time.

I have built a "timeline" of Titlist labels and Hoppe signatures which I will be putting on my web-site "soon", but I'll run it by you first - I'm sure you have seen some labels that I haven't.

 

[TATE]

Thanks Chris - that clears up some questions I've had for a long time.

I have built a "timeline" of Titlist labels and Hoppe signatures which I will be putting on my web-site "soon", but I'll run it by you first - I'm sure you have seen some labels that I haven't.

I will be glad to help you also with details pics of my Brunswicks. Your mailbox is full. My e-mail address is palmercollector@aol.com

thanks,

Chris

 

[runscott]

I will be glad to help you also with details pics of my Brunswicks. Your mailbox is full. My e-mail address is palmercollector@aol.com

thanks,

Chris

Hi Chris, sorry about that - I've cleaned it out.

Scott

 

[titlistsucker]

i believe Chris is right on the money on ur cue being a 26 1/2 . Though the blue book indicates that the 26 1/2 comes in 2 veneered ebony and with the MOP wedge, there are in fact a couple of variants with rosewood and the "titlist" veneers which are the later ones and/or no Wedge. Many associate the 26 1/2 with the wedge and when u have a MOP wedge on a 26 1/2 the value skyrockets.

My 2 cts

Bgrds
Raist

 

[TATE]

i believe Chris is right on the money on ur cue being a 26 1/2 . Though the blue book indicates that the 26 1/2 comes in 2 veneered ebony and with the MOP wedge, there are in fact a couple of variants with rosewood and the "titlist" veneers which are the later ones and/or no Wedge. Many associate the 26 1/2 with the wedge and when u have a MOP wedge on a 26 1/2 the value skyrockets.

My 2 cts

Bgrds
Raist

Scott,

Raist would be a good contact for you regarding these cues as well of you're building a web page.

Chris

 

[Barbara]

Many associate the 26 1/2 with the wedge and when u have a MOP wedge on a 26 1/2 the value skyrockets.

My 2 cts

Bgrds
Raist

I hate Tate!!

Barbara