Band Saw

[JerseyBill]

can I put a bi-metal blade on any benchtop lathe?

8 Years ago I had a complete shop. I had two "Rivers of wood" and a river of lathes, including a new Cuemaster Deluxe a new Jet 1440 a new Brianna CNC, a Central machine 1440 , a couple of higher end wood lathes I converted, and a beautiful very large Jet Band saw and great quality table saw new. All gone in one day. I hurt my knee, back, and hip and thought I wasn't going to work anymore. I had only made a dozen complete cues at that time and sold the whole thing for a song. Someone made a real score on me. Now I have little income and am trying to at least make some cues and the affordability is really not there to buy everything I would like. I would love to have all of those saws and more but it will take some time and that's the second thing I probably don't have a lot of. At 74 my energy level isn't what it was at 66 and just to go down to the shop is an effort. I'm not quitting but my dreams will take quite awhile to be fulfilled.

 

[JerseyBill]

Do you shop auctions, or plan to buy retail?



I hope it is not insulting as to what you already know: keep in mind that wood cutting saws tend to run somewhere over 3,000 ft/min band speed. Bigger/"commercial" tend to run around 4,500 fpm.

Unfortunately, steel is cut with band speeds slightly under 100 ft/min. Stainless, maybe even less. Depending whether you are using carbon steel bands, or HSS. Hence, to cut steel on a bandsaw tends to require a gearbox and several speed ranges.

I sometimes saw aluminum on my woodworking bandsaws, but as others noted, never with a good blade - it will dull it for fine wood cutting. For that matter, I sometimes saw aluminum up on one of the table saws. Again, not with a good blade that will be used with wood. All due safe practices observed, of course.

Where this is going: if you are stuck on one saw to do it all, get a good one proven to be convenient to change over, and proven to be a good performer in both roles. The classic machine would be a 16" DoALL, or a Grob (still made in USA!) Some Grobs do have weird guides, which may or may not be an advantage. They can also be changed.

At a lower price point, Rockwell Delta's 14" wood-metal cutting saw is highly respected. So is their 20" version. Powermatic made analogs of both, and may be even slightly better but a little less common.

It might be cheaper and more convenient in use, to get a 14" metal cutting saw, and a 16" or larger wood cutting saw. It is a real nuisance to clean the cutting fluid off a machine after sawing steel, change the blade, change the guides or at least the guide setting, re- set the speeds, and then saw wood. Let alone if you have to go back & forth a few times a day.

To get the best performance out of a bandsaw especially in wood cutting mode does involve a deeper understanding of machine factors and "tuning" or set up, than say a table saw.

smt

Not insulted in the least. I know what I know, I can't change my learning curve that I'm aware of. I'm glad for people throwing around terms I'm not familiar with as I'm smart enough to pick up on it and put it together to equal a sum of knowledge useful to me. Buying or shopping for various saws and lathes has taught me alot and listening to you guys on this forum has also. Keep it up, I have thick skin. Oh and I try auctions when I can, Craigslist etc. Too bad I retail it also.
thanks Bill

 

[Ssonerai]

Well its funny I went to craigs list after this forum and lo and behold was a DO ALL band saw for sale. wow lucky me....NO it was too much money. almost four thousand if I recall. Anyway it was cost prohibitive. I'll keep looking or buy a new Grizzly for around 1200.

I know not every area has access to a "river of old machines" auctions. But i think you could pick up a DoALL in decent shape for under $1500 in many "formerly industrialized" areas aka rust belt. I've seen them under $800, but that would be rarish.
The big thing about any old machine is condition. On the DoALL's you want to make sure the vari-speed reeves drive (expanding pulleys and thick belt, like a sled transmission) is in good shape. Other than that, decent rubber on the wheels and usable guides. Most will be 3ph, but that is easy to solve with either a free idler motor/generator in the corner or loft, or a somewhat more expensive but more flexible VFD.

It would terrify me to think about having to start over again, my deepest sympathies. If so, I'd look for a Delta/Rockwell or Powermatic 14" or 20" wood cutting saw & plan on using a hacksaw, jigsaw, or sawzall to cut steel until i go going again. R/D saw should be under $400. Possibly under $150 at a widow;s estate sale or yard sale. About the same at a real machine tool auction, or less. The 20" saws will still bring some good money but should be well under $1,000 & at an auction you never know when something is going to go sky high, or be practically given away. You just have to attend a few to increase the odds and don't get carried away by auction fever ever.

The thing about R/D or PM vs import in the 14" size is that the former USA made saws are more rigid, and generally have better wheels and guides. But for wood, you can make an import work. Many high end woodworkers and cue makers have done so, at least to get started. If the cost is much over $200, I'd hold out for the older US saws, though.

Did i miss where you are in the country? Still NJ?

smt

 

[JerseyBill]

I know not every area has access to a "river of old machines" auctions. But i think you could pick up a DoALL in decent shape for under $1500 in many "formerly industrialized" areas aka rust belt. I've seen them under $800, but that would be rarish.
The big thing about any old machine is condition. On the DoALL's you want to make sure the vari-speed reeves drive (expanding pulleys and thick belt, like a sled transmission) is in good shape. Other than that, decent rubber on the wheels and usable guides. Most will be 3ph, but that is easy to solve with either a free idler motor/generator in the corner or loft, or a somewhat more expensive but more flexible VFD.

It would terrify me to think about having to start over again, my deepest sympathies. If so, I'd look for a Delta/Rockwell or Powermatic 14" or 20" wood cutting saw & plan on using a hacksaw, jigsaw, or sawzall to cut steel until i go going again. R/D saw should be under $400. Possibly under $150 at a widow;s estate sale or yard sale. About the same at a real machine tool auction, or less. The 20" saws will still bring some good money but should be well under $1,000 & at an auction you never know when something is going to go sky high, or be practically given away. You just have to attend a few to increase the odds and don't get carried away by auction fever ever.

The thing about R/D or PM vs import in the 14" size is that the former USA made saws are more rigid, and generally have better wheels and guides. But for wood, you can make an import work. Many high end woodworkers and cue makers have done so, at least to get started. If the cost is much over $200, I'd hold out for the older US saws, though.

Did i miss where you are in the country? Still NJ?

smt

Yeah, living 15 miles from my daughter and grandkids in Broome Co. N.Y. Thanks for the great adviced and I'm looking for auctions but don't seem to find any?? Am I doing something wrong? Plenty if I want to buy a tv or car but machinery is not what I see. I'll keep looking. My mind is opened much more now. I'd like to find a used cuelathe but the second one comes for sale it's gone. I check here twice a day and still I'm late. lol

 

[Ssonerai]

Interesting.
I was going to suggest Central Jersey Woodworkers Assoc. (CJWA) if you were still in NJ. They have loaner tools including a small bandsaw. & part of the mission is connecting people that need tools with tools being disposed of. I have not been down in over a decade, they had me give a forum on making cutting tools for the small shop maybe 15 years ago, and i've sort of kept in touch with a few, though some i knew have died.

Up here, there are auctions often enough. I have not needed anything for years but that does not stop me buying tooling. Have done well at the annual Broome Co auctions in the past. Took a miss this year because it was mostly vehicles and few if any machine tools like previous years. A lot of the better stuff (auctions) end up being in Rochester or Syracuse area, but some comes up in Binghamton from time to time. I think there is/was a DoALL on C list for $1,500 recently? Some smaller saws, too. Though of course much higher than waiting for an actual auction. Use Binghamton, Ithaca, & "Finger Lakes" for search areas on C-list. Add Syracuse and Rochester if you can travel that far. Bernie Brzostec's auctions have wood shops more than a few times a year, even though he is more houses and estate sales. I was at one up past Utica about a month ago, to feed my antique 2-man chainsaw jones, lol. :^).

We also have a group that is more machine shop oriented, used to meet every week, either Newark Valley or Richford (both on Rt 38) Last few years dropped back to every 2 weeks, now with the C plague, it's kind of sporadic. Might not even be another meeting this year since a few go to FLA. But the guys do a good job of finding machines when necessary & keeping each other aware of auctions.

Used to try to get down to Triangle Billiards in Vestal once a month or so even if only to see Nick (owner), Very sad day when he died, so have not traveled that far for pool since.

smt

 

[JerseyBill]

Interesting.
I was going to suggest Central Jersey Woodworkers Assoc. (CJWA) if you were still in NJ. They have loaner tools including a small bandsaw. & part of the mission is connecting people that need tools with tools being disposed of. I have not been down in over a decade, they had me give a forum on making cutting tools for the small shop maybe 15 years ago, and i've sort of kept in touch with a few, though some i knew have died.

Up here, there are auctions often enough. I have not needed anything for years but that does not stop me buying tooling. Have done well at the annual Broome Co auctions in the past. Took a miss this year because it was mostly vehicles and few if any machine tools like previous years. A lot of the better stuff (auctions) end up being in Rochester or Syracuse area, but some comes up in Binghamton from time to time. I think there is/was a DoALL on C list for $1,500 recently? Some smaller saws, too. Though of course much higher than waiting for an actual auction. Use Binghamton, Ithaca, & "Finger Lakes" for search areas on C-list. Add Syracuse and Rochester if you can travel that far. Bernie Brzostec's auctions have wood shops more than a few times a year, even though he is more houses and estate sales. I was at one up past Utica about a month ago, to feed my antique 2-man chainsaw jones, lol. :^).

We also have a group that is more machine shop oriented, used to meet every week, either Newark Valley or Richford (both on Rt 38) Last few years dropped back to every 2 weeks, now with the C plague, it's kind of sporadic. Might not even be another meeting this year since a few go to FLA. But the guys do a good job of finding machines when necessary & keeping each other aware of auctions.

Used to try to get down to Triangle Billiards in Vestal once a month or so even if only to see Nick (owner), Very sad day when he died, so have not traveled that far for pool since.

smt

Nick was my very good friend. I played there daily just before he left us. I called him about something the morning he died. What a great man in so many ways. His Eulogy should have been written by Hemingway or the like. Now the poolroom is closed and a new one up the street has a fresher environment , but nothing matches Triangle and all the old faces I don't see much of.

 

[Ssonerai]

You're not the guy who tried to get me started on the Billiards (carom) table a couple years ago, while you waited for your 1P "customer" were you?
He instructed, and built cues but had lost shop in fire? IIRC?

I didn't come down often enough to ever get to know anyone & it always seemed to be off hours. Started going there after my retina surgery to torture myself (try to learn to shoot one eyed at the time). Always had good conversations with Nick. Was there the first time he went unconscious. Late afternoon, me and a couple were the only people in the place. He was talking to them about a cue at table next to mine. I was doing drills. Nick suddenly dropped straight to the floor stone cold out. The lady had best presence of mind "dial 911" I loaded it and waited about 2 beats before punching it. Nick started to move & roused a little groggily and insisted i not call (probably not smart, but it's hard to argue with someone you want the best for, when he seems ok.) We talked a bit and the couple had to go. Later he called his wife to come get him and closed early. Interesting how some people make a very positive influence in your life, even with only limited presence/contact

Per your tool questions:
You know NY libraries have maker spaces, some with bandsaws, and most with cnc routers that can do cue stuff. Though 4th axis might take some negotiating. Unfortunately ours in Chemung is on limited hours and special appointments with upsurge in the plague.

 

[JerseyBill]

You're not the guy who tried to get me started on the Billiards (carom) table a couple years ago, while you waited for your 1P "customer" were you?
He instructed, and built cues but had lost shop in fire? IIRC?

I didn't come down often enough to ever get to know anyone & it always seemed to be off hours. Started going there after my retina surgery to torture myself (try to learn to shoot one eyed at the time). Always had good conversations with Nick. Was there the first time he went unconscious. Late afternoon, me and a couple were the only people in the place. He was talking to them about a cue at table next to mine. I was doing drills. Nick suddenly dropped straight to the floor stone cold out. The lady had best presence of mind "dial 911" I loaded it and waited about 2 beats before punching it. Nick started to move & roused a little groggily and insisted i not call (probably not smart, but it's hard to argue with someone you want the best for, when he seems ok.) We talked a bit and the couple had to go. Later he called his wife to come get him and closed early. Interesting how some people make a very positive influence in your life, even with only limited presence/contact

Per your tool questions:
You know NY libraries have maker spaces, some with bandsaws, and most with cnc routers that can do cue stuff. Though 4th axis might take some negotiating. Unfortunately ours in Chemung is on limited hours and special appointments with upsurge in the plague.

you are thinking of Paul his shop burned down. No I'm another guy but I probably know you by sight at least.

 

[JerseyBill]

you are thinking of Paul his shop burned down. No I'm another guy but I probably know you by sight at least.

I don't understand? New york libraries? have Maker spaces? what are those and where in New York? State or city?
thanks

 

[Ssonerai]

You are right about the name. Generous, patient guy who spent a couple sessions trying to help me understand the break and a few basics of 3c. Always wanted to learn but was never around a 3c table until Nick put one in fairly late.

"Maker spaces" or "Creation Stations" in some jargon are new to me, too, and i have been grudging about learning the modern methods, very little personal progress because the machines require computers, and seem small compared to my shop.

NY state has an initiative, a good one, to get cnc tools and some basic machines into shops in libraries, so kids (& adults) can be exposed to them and use them for projects. Most have 3D printers, at least a small cnc router, a laser cutter, and then from there it kind of seems to depend on the initiative of the guy or gal they put in charge. Our Chemung Co main library has a very ambitious director, and they have an X-carve 4' x 4' which is a toy compared to an industrial router, however it is apparently remarkably capable (full 3D capable) and could be taught to do cue work. Either with a manual indexer, or if a 4th axis could be connived.

I used to donate odds and ends of 1/8" & 1/4" plywood so the kids would not have to pay for it to cut up on the laser. Never used the machines because the computer part was too intimidating. But the director is a friend and he got me to cut some veneer inlays for a pool table restoration there. He "made" me sit at the terminal and over 3 sessions got me to the final result. But to be honest he more or less did the work.

Here's my description of using the library: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/library-resource-for-pool-table-repair.519038/

Today, wife & I were up in Auburn and walked past the library so we went in to look at the woodwork and architecture. The director gave us a tour and showed us they had just set up a room in the back, starting their maker space when the plague hit. So she is frustrated about getting it going.

All that said, looking online tonight, I can't find where Broome County has picked up any of this beyond sewing machines. Kind of disappointing, given the industry that was in Binghamton. Might call & ask. Or maybe it would have no application for you anyway. The tools and capabilities of the various libraries seems to depend on the awareness and initiative of the individual librarians. In looking up various counties, maybe for a backwater, Chemung Co is a little ahead of the curve.

My place is crowded and cluttered but if you ever want to meet, send a note. Just outside of Elmira.

 

[JerseyBill]

You are right about the name. Generous, patient guy who spent a couple sessions trying to help me understand the break and a few basics of 3c. Always wanted to learn but was never around a 3c table until Nick put one in fairly late.

"Maker spaces" or "Creation Stations" in some jargon are new to me, too, and i have been grudging about learning the modern methods, very little personal progress because the machines require computers, and seem small compared to my shop.

NY state has an initiative, a good one, to get cnc tools and some basic machines into shops in libraries, so kids (& adults) can be exposed to them and use them for projects. Most have 3D printers, at least a small cnc router, a laser cutter, and then from there it kind of seems to depend on the initiative of the guy or gal they put in charge. Our Chemung Co main library has a very ambitious director, and they have an X-carve 4' x 4' which is a toy compared to an industrial router, however it is apparently remarkably capable (full 3D capable) and could be taught to do cue work. Either with a manual indexer, or if a 4th axis could be connived.

I used to donate odds and ends of 1/8" & 1/4" plywood so the kids would not have to pay for it to cut up on the laser. Never used the machines because the computer part was too intimidating. But the director is a friend and he got me to cut some veneer inlays for a pool table restoration there. He "made" me sit at the terminal and over 3 sessions got me to the final result. But to be honest he more or less did the work.

Here's my description of using the library: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/library-resource-for-pool-table-repair.519038/

Today, wife & I were up in Auburn and walked past the library so we went in to look at the woodwork and architecture. The director gave us a tour and showed us they had just set up a room in the back, starting their maker space when the plague hit. So she is frustrated about getting it going.

All that said, looking online tonight, I can't find where Broome County has picked up any of this beyond sewing machines. Kind of disappointing, given the industry that was in Binghamton. Might call & ask. Or maybe it would have no application for you anyway. The tools and capabilities of the various libraries seems to depend on the awareness and initiative of the individual librarians. In looking up various counties, maybe for a backwater, Chemung Co is a little ahead of the curve.

My place is crowded and cluttered but if you ever want to meet, send a note. Just outside of Elmira.

I'm sure at one point we can do that. Im not sure how far elmira is? Auburn sounds not too far? I really want to do something in one of these places. I saw one near Binghamton after you enlightened me and I may go there. I like they train you for a short time before using the machines.