Banks and Kicks - No Diamonds

Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What would you say is the best banking and kicking system for tables with no diamonds such as snooker, English pool and we seem to have a lot of barbox tables here with no diamonds on?

I accidentally clicked the link in Mohrts signature and found my self reading through the site. Came accross the "magic spot" which I'd never heard of. Tried it out at home on my table with a few 3 rail kicks and had great success. Then I tried it with a few 3 and 4 rail banks, again with great success. I was having a friendly match with a friend on an English pool table and I was having real trouble banking and kicking from feel. So I thought I'd try and implement the magic spot method into the next bank or kick I had...I nailed it. The way I see it is its all about how well you can judge where the diamond is for finding where the magic spot is. Once you find that its very easy to bank and kick 3-4 rails. Its even easier on an English pool table because the rails don't alter the angle as much as an American pool table (or pool table depending on which side of the pond you live) when playing with speed so you don't have to transfer running english onto the OB or CB.

So I would have to say that without the aid of diamonds the magic spot method is the best for 3-4 rails, but I'm still in the "play by feel" corner for 1 and 2 rails.
 
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Primo said:
Pro1 for the banking 100%.
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I agree to some extent. On an American pool table it works wonders but on an English pool table it doesn't work due to the smaller CB compared to OB. And on a snooker table you very rarely bank and when you do they are into the middle pockets and are considered very easy (as far as judging the angle of the bank, but they are still difficult on tight pockets).
 
Pidge said:
What would you say is the best banking and kicking system for tables with no diamonds such as snooker, English pool and we seem to have a lot of barbox tables here with no diamonds on?

I accidentally clicked the link in Mohrts signature and found my self reading through the site. Came accross the "magic spot" which I'd never heard of. Tried it out at home on my table with a few 3 rail kicks and had great success. Then I tried it with a few 3 and 4 rail banks, again with great success. I was having a friendly match with a friend on an English pool table and I was having real trouble banking and kicking from feel. So I thought I'd try and implement the magic spot method into the next bank or kick I had...I nailed it. The way I see it is its all about how well you can judge where the diamond is for finding where the magic spot is. Once you find that its very easy to bank and kick 3-4 rails. Its even easier on an English pool table because the rails don't alter the angle as much as an American pool table (or pool table depending on which side of the pond you live) when playing with speed so you don't have to transfer running english onto the OB or CB.

So I would have to say that without the aid of diamonds the magic spot method is the best for 3-4 rails, but I'm still in the "play by feel" corner for 1 and 2 rails.
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CTE PRO ONE is the nuts for banks. No diamonds necessary. You may also be interested in information from John Brumback and Freddie the Beard.

http://youtu.be/u7-lt-RV-nE
 
Up until recently I used pro1 and CTE for years and could never get the consistency with using a smaller CB. Stan himself admits pro1 is not designed for use with a smaller CB and won't work. Even simple potting doesn't work.

A 2 1/16 CB and a 2 1/2 OB on a 9 footer is a good question. But if you have access to a snooker table try it on there. The 2 1/2 OB would be a closer comparison of an English pool table in terms of size of OB to pocket and the pockets are cut very similar.

Let me know how you get on and if you make 6 different banks out of 10 ill buy you a beer :)
 
Pidge said:
Up until recently I used pro1 and CTE for years and could never get the consistency with using a smaller CB. Stan himself admits pro1 is not designed for use with a smaller CB and won't work. Even simple potting doesn't work.

A 2 1/16 CB and a 2 1/2 OB on a 9 footer is a good question. But if you have access to a snooker table try it on there. The 2 1/2 OB would be a closer comparison of an English pool table in terms of size of OB to pocket and the pockets are cut very similar.

Let me know how you get on and if you make 6 different banks out of 10 ill buy you a beer :)
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Why is that you think?
 
Pidge said:
Up until recently I used pro1 and CTE for years and could never get the consistency with using a smaller CB. Stan himself admits pro1 is not designed for use with a smaller CB and won't work. Even simple potting doesn't work.

A 2 1/16 CB and a 2 1/2 OB on a 9 footer is a good question. But if you have access to a snooker table try it on there. The 2 1/2 OB would be a closer comparison of an English pool table in terms of size of OB to pocket and the pockets are cut very similar.

Let me know how you get on and if you make 6 different banks out of 10 ill buy you a beer :)
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I wouldn't know anything about using CTE with a different sized cueball. I suppose the best answer is the PIITH method with lots of time at the table :grin:
 
LAMas said:
Why is that you think?
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Since the table is still a 2:1 ratio you get the wrong reference lines since the edge of the CB isn't "where its meant to be" for the system to be utilized to its full potential.

That's my logic behind why it doesn't work anyway.
 
Primo said:
well this is how I see it, the ctel should be the same regardless of cue ball size, I would think? I am just thinking about this now as we are exchanging posts here so I could be wrong.. So the secondary line becomes really important, i guess in final positioning. Are the sizes in the ball enough to throw you off the correct shot line?
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The CB is 1 7/8 and the OBs are 2 inches. You would think 1/8 of an inch wouldn't be enough, but the pockets are very tight. Ive never measured them but I'd say you can fit a ball and 1/3 of a ball in a pocket. They way they're cut means you can't cheat the pocket and you just rattle the jaws.

You don't miss by much, so I guess it could work on a 9 footer with a snooker CB if the pockets are 4 1/2 inches.
 
Primo said:
what is the reason for using the different sized ball anyway?
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It appears us clever (I use that term loosely) Brits were too smart to consider putting a magnet in the CB and instead made the CB smaller so it went down a different path in the ball return system on coin operated tables.

Steve Davis got it right when he said "pool can't be taken seriously until they use a CB the same size as the rest". Unfortunately that's not going to happen now as it would mean changing every table in every pub, bar and poolhall nationwide. Shame.
 
Since I've been watching a lot of Darren Appleton matches, and heard he was a champion at English pool, I watched some on Youtube. Had no idea the balls were different sizes, or the pockets were that tight. Different game for sure, interesting though, and no joke shooting into those holes...

Scott
 
Pidge said:
Since the table is still a 2:1 ratio you get the wrong reference lines since the edge of the CB isn't "where its meant to be" for the system to be utilized to its full potential.

That's my logic behind why it doesn't work anyway.
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One can adjust the visuals to compensate for the smaller CB.:smile:
 
LAMas said:
One can adjust the visuals to compensate for the smaller CB.:smile:
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Adjusting the visuals for English pool and then adjusting back again for snooker and pool wouldn't aid my game in any way. And especially if I'm just using it to bank. if i were to switch back to Pro1 then I'd switch back full time and my English pool game would suffer.

As I've had more time to practice, I've found a consistant spot on an English pool table to use as the "magic spot" for 3 rail banks and kicks. Its just short of where it would be on a 9 footer and the plus side is I can hit the banks and kicks hard as long as I transfer running english on the OB. I hit 20 and made 17. With the tight pockets I'd expect to have made less than half. Maybe I was lucky.
 
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Primo said:
I believe if you use pro1 without an adjustment when using the smaller sized cue ball than the object balls. You should be making undercut misses. The different sized cue ball will be pulling your alignment and body position a touch more open, (think of a door opening and closing) it will straighten the shot out a bit and make for an undercut miss on very tight pockets. This should be a easy adjustment now for you since you now have an understanding of what's going on. I did not have time to try this at the table, but I have a good understanding of the system and again I am just thinking about this now, so I could be wrong but do not think so? lol

The adjustment is very similar as to how I would cheat a pocket using pro1.
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It varies. On half ball hits I over cut the shot. Quarter ball or straighter I hit them thick, and on thin snicks I would miss the OB all together. I don't know how accurate using a snooker cb with pool obs would be. Weight difference, size difference and completely different cloth all affect it. Pro1 works wonders on dead straight shots though! I still use it, especially if I need to screw back perfectly straight in all billiard games.
 
Primo said:
If you're doing pro1 exactly how Stan teaches it, the smaller cue ball will shift your alignment slightly towards the CTEL and straighten out the shot a bit. It would be similar to what a 1/8 adjust shot where the cb/ob are close to each other.
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I did it by the book, and those were the results I had.
 
Pidge said:
Adjusting the visuals for English pool and then adjusting back again for snooker and pool wouldn't aid my game in any way. And especially if I'm just using it to bank. if i were to switch back to Pro1 then I'd switch back full time and my English pool game would suffer.

As I've had more time to practice, I've found a consistant spot on an English pool table to use as the "magic spot" for 3 rail banks and kicks. Its just short of where it would be on a 9 footer and the plus side is I can hit the banks and kicks hard as long as I transfer running english on the OB. I hit 20 and made 17. With the tight pockets I'd expect to have made less than half. Maybe I was lucky.
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Give up Snooker?:):thumbup:
 
Primo said:
You got me thinking about this lol :)

With the balls being the same size you would have CTE and edge to 6/8. With the cue ball being 1/8 smaller, to match the alignment and body position of CTE and edge to 6/8 you would have to be CTE and edge to 5/8.
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Quick! Get a calculator and run to the nearest chalk board and do some equations on the matter! Haha :)

Perhaps my subconcious mind (oh how I wish I didn't have it!) cause me to over compensate because I was aware Pro1 wouldn't work. I do find it strange how I didn't consistently miss. Some thick, some thin, some not hitting the ob.
 
Pidge said:
Quick! Get a calculator and run to the nearest chalk board and do some equations on the matter! Haha :)

Perhaps my subconcious mind (oh how I wish I didn't have it!) cause me to over compensate because I was aware Pro1 wouldn't work. I do find it strange how I didn't consistently miss. Some thick, some thin, some not hitting the ob.
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Do they sell snooker CB that are the same size as the colored balls?:thumbup:
 
LAMas said:
Do they sell snooker CB that are the same size as the colored balls?:thumbup:
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I wish! It would go down the OB path in the ball return system and you'd have to pay to get the CB back every time the white was potted :(
 
LAMas said:
Do they sell snooker CB that are the same size as the colored balls?:thumbup:
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All the sets are.

I think someone's getting confused with coin operated pub pool tables where the CB is 1 7/8" and the rest are 2".
 
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