Bar rules 8-ball: The intentional miscue!

[chefjeff]

Bar rules created this problem, right? If so, I'd use this situation to explain to your pool-illiterate opponent why BIH and 3-foul rules, etc. exist and why it would be better to play by those rules next time.

Pretending to miscue is unnecessary, isn't it? In bar rules, just miss and let your opponent shoot. After 10 minutes or so of this back-&-forth, re-explain why bar rules suck and why you should be playing by the real rules.

And/or, bet him a beer that he can't get his balls out of that corner without potting the 8 accidently, and so what if you lose?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Cory in DC]

Seems like a few times I've been in league situations where I wanted to just give the other player ball in hand, but wanted them to shoot their balls, not to play a safe back or hand the cue ball right back to me.

In cases where my low handicapped opponent was out of timeouts or I figured nobody on the other team was likely to come up with the obvious counter, I've been concerned that if I simply handed them the CB or shot one of their balls in, I would give them the idea of safeing back or handing BIH over to me.

The solution? Intentional miscue that gives up BIH without letting them know I did it on purpose. Admittedly it doesn't come up very often, but it seem perfectly legal if not ethical to me.

BillyBob's scenario is a bit different, but I think we've all played "no safeties" 8-ball at some point and seen how many non-safety safeties people shoot. This is just a variation on what everybody does, and a good example for why bars should start playing ball in hand rules.

Cory

 

[BillYards]

According to the bar rules I have seen, Billy Bob is playing by the rules. Any "on your honor" talk is just ridiculous. The object is to win within the set rules. "On your honor" involves a judgement call and is not covered by any rules I know.

If you can't shoot at the 8 without pocketing it illegally, you would be a dunce to try any shot that came anywhere near it.

It is not a question about integrity. It is a question about legality. Is it legal? Yes. So where is there a lack of integrity? Are you supposed to just go for the 8, even when you will lose the game on an illegal shot. Bull-pucky, I say! Get off Billy Bob.

I have never heard of a rule that states that you must lose to your opponent to save your "honor".

 

[supergreenman]

According to the bar rules I have seen, Billy Bob is playing by the rules. Any "on your honor" talk is just ridiculous. The object is to win within the set rules. "On your honor" involves a judgement call and is not covered by any rules I know.

If you can't shoot at the 8 without pocketing it illegally, you would be a dunce to try any shot that came anywhere near it.

It is not a question about integrity. It is a question about legality. Is it legal? Yes. So where is there a lack of integrity? Are you supposed to just go for the 8, even when you will lose the game on an illegal shot. Bull-pucky, I say! Get off Billy Bob.

I have never heard of a rule that states that you must lose to your opponent to save your "honor".

Thanks for putting my thoughts to words. Bar rules are some everchanging rearranging, never consistant ghost that you can't pin down. If you can't get someone to "show me where it says that" then it isn't a rule. now in in the situation that BillyBob showed. my agressive strategy, (considering it's bar rules lol and I wouldn't play any kind of serious game using bar rules) would be to play the cb down to the foot of the table as shown
START(
%AD8Y3%BF3Z8%CG4Y1%DF3W1%HD5Z9%Pj8K2%WK3[1%Xi7K6%YH9Z1%ZJ7[1

)END hoping to entice the opponent to shoot to the the other bottom corner leaving a shot at that end of the table for yourself when he um miscues and since it's a game of no consequence attempt a rail jump like so:

START(
%AD8Y3%BF3Z8%CE0T2%DC6L4%HD5Z9%PG4M2%WE9D4%XG2L2%_D4Z2%`@2S1
%aE5C5
)END

Hopefully, I'll shock and awe everyone around. and if it fails and I either have knocked all the balls everywhere or lose, but hell I had fun trying.

 

[MikeH]

Well...

Bill -

If you don't like the rules then dont play (i.e. find an APA or BCA rule-set tournament somewhere else), that is the same as moving the cue ball if you knew you werent going to get caught.

Though I do like your knight in shining armor approach...


-Mike

 

[MikeH]

Sigh

Cory-

If "everyone" is doing something it doesn't make it right.

Maybe it would take a nice ring game to get you to see the light?

-Mike

Ok really I am done with this thread now...

 

[BillYards]

Bill -

If you don't like the rules then dont play (i.e. find an APA or BCA rule-set tournament somewhere else), that is the same as moving the cue ball if you knew you werent going to get caught.

Though I do like your knight in shining armor approach...


-Mike

Mike:

I never said that I did not like the rules... I am a stickler for playing by the rules, regardless of where that is or by what rules the game is governed...

All I am saying is that any "batting" around of the cueball is completely legal in barroom rules 8-ball. I love BCA and VNEA rules (and any similar) that contain ball in hand for fouls...

The problem that I have with enforcing "honest attempts to hit" is that more often than not, I am the one being held to that rule, but my opponent is not. Even if I don't make an "honest" attempt... what is the penalty? Ball in hand does not exist... a loss of game is not written into the rules... It is tough sh*t for the opponent.

I didn't make the rules... but I will play by them.

I guess Billy Bob's miscue is mostly designed to keep any arguments from happening... personally I don't see the need for the miscue. Shooting the cueball anywhere on the table is ok in barrules. Why waste energy trying to be cute about it?

And I strongly disagree with your "moving the cueball" statement. That IS a dishonest move.

 

[supergreenman]

Mike:

I never said that I did not like the rules... I am a stickler for playing by the rules, regardless of where that is or by what rules the game is governed...

All I am saying is that any "batting" around of the cueball is completely legal in barroom rules 8-ball. I love BCA and VNEA rules (and any similar) that contain ball in hand for fouls...

The problem that I have with enforcing "honest attempts to hit" is that more often than not, I am the one being held to that rule, but my opponent is not. Even if I don't make an "honest" attempt... what is the penalty? Ball in hand does not exist... a loss of game is not written into the rules... It is tough sh*t for the opponent.

I didn't make the rules... but I will play by them.

I guess Billy Bob's miscue is mostly designed to keep any arguments from happening... personally I don't see the need for the miscue. Shooting the cueball anywhere on the table is ok in barrules. Why waste energy trying to be cute about it?

And I strongly disagree with your "moving the cueball" statement. That IS a dishonest move.

I would also submit that there is no such thing as having to make an honest attempt at the ball. (unless it's written on the wall of the bar you're playing at) as it is, it's a rule without any penalties and there is therefore redundant.

I would have no problem given the original situation that billybob presented calling "just a shot" and floating the cueball where ever on the table I da%n well please.