Official BCAPL response (long)
OK, here we go. First the usual advisement: strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" This post is being made to ensure that there is no confusion concerning BCAPL rules. See the disclaimers at the end of the post for details.
Now the oblique stuff:
PKM said:
I don't think there's much room for abuse if the other player is paying attention. It'd be a pretty risky move!
You are absolutely right, IF the other player is paying attention. The problem is that players do not always pay perfect attention, and therein lies the potential for abuse, which is very real and not as uncommon as you might think. This is also not at all an uncommon discussion, particularly in the referee community. Unfortunately, prior to 2008 neither WSR nor BCAPL rules addressed the situation specifically, and (at least at BCA/BCAPL Nationals) the interpretation varied several times over the years from 2000- 2007 and probably before that. To be more specific, the unwritten interpretation from 2000 on was always that groups could change, but the particular moment at which they changed varied.
The variations over the years and the lack of specific written guidance from pre-WSR and pre-2008 WSR account for the multiple "group-changing" offerings in this thread and general confusion over the years. All of those are now irrelevant for anyone using the 2008 WSR or 2008-2009 BCAPL rule sets.
mjantti said:
"[WSR Regulations]10. If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the opponent?s group, the foul must be called before he takes his next shot. Upon recognition by either player or the referee that the groups have been reversed, the rack will be halted and will be replayed with the original player executing the break shot."
Meaning that the player in his chair has to call the foul on the first shot when his opponents start shooting balls from the wrong group. After calling the foul, the rack will be replayed. This addendum has been added just because it's too easy for the player in his chair to wait until his opponent has cleared the table and just say "hey, you shot all my balls and fouled while pocketing the 8 and lost, thanks".
I am not a WSR expert, but with complete respect for Mikko (and if I properly understand the interpretation offerred) I believe that this is not exactly correct.
I believe that the writer's intent is that the second sentence stands as an independent clause not associated with the first sentence, and that the first sentence only serves to set a time limit for calling the foul of playing the wrong group. I believe that the intent is that the game will be replayed if the error in groups is discovered at any time after the first foul has not been called in a timely manner. If Mr. Jewett is listening perhaps a clarification is in the offing, and I will be corrected if I am wrong...
mjantti said:
...do they automatically use WPA rules at the BCA or does the BCA confirm the new set of WPA rules separately for their own use at a certain time ?
See the disclaimers below.
smoooothstroke said:
To me the only reason to change this rule is to sort of dumb-down BCA play.To me the BCA used to be about pool exellence and improving play for all levells.Maybe the BCAPL is trying to market itself toward the (more) beer consuming APA type player (you no longer have to pay attention to your game or match while your oponent is at the table).
Quite the contrary. As noted, the WPA, as expressed through the WSR, feels the same way as the BCAPL. As a matter of fact, the BCAPL followed the WPA's lead on this one. If you think that the WPA is also trying to "dumb-down" play, so be it, but first see and consider the later discussion for a different reasoning.
Finally, the official BCAPL response to the OP's situation: The game will be replayed. The only wrinkle that was being clarified was what the ruling was if (as in the OP's situation) the error was discovered after the 8-ball had been pocketed.
The answer is that the result of the game becomes final after it has been scored (if there is an official scoring process) or when the break shot of the next game occurs, whichever comes first. If the error is discovered prior to either of those events, the game is still replayed.
The entire problem of this "group-changing" situation is unique to the game of 8-Ball, and the general principle that the failure to call a foul on a previous shot does not preclude calling the same foul on a later shot does not necessarily fit well with the concept of groups. While some may disagree, it is hardly unfair to consider it a significant departure from the spirit of the game if you allow your opponent to shoot your group off and then call a foul later at your leisure. No other common billiards game presents the same potential situation, and to let a game of 8-ball degrade into a circus simply because of the nature of the game does not seem justified.
(For what it's worth), from a referee's perspective I believe that the WSR, followed by the BCAPL, nailed it perfectly. When the BCAPL made the decision to follow the WSR lead, the reasoning was clear: In the end analysis, if you opt to allow for a group change by any mechanism, at best it significanlty departs from the natural progression of the game and therefore (at least in the BCAPL view) the spirit of the game. At worst it allows for all kinds of shenanigans by an unscrupulous player, and it becomes more difficult to enforce UC with a clear conscience against such actions when the rules offer a perfect set-up for it.
By far and away, the more defensible position is to reason that if the game has become so confused that the players have lost track of which groups are being played, either through inattention or confusion, then the intent and spirit of the game have been lost. Better to start afresh.
As always the decisions by the BCAPL are not mine - I just assist in recording the results of their decisions in the form of rules, and these posts only explain some of those rules and occasionally may comment on some of the reasoning behind the decisions. Pardon me if I bordered on offering a personal opinion here. If I did, it is irrelevant with respect to the BCAPL Rules.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Senior Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
:smile:
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
