BCA or APA for League Play

[zetetikos]

The league we used to have here was 4 person teams each player played each player from the opposing team 2 games . Highest points at the end of the night was the winning team. It was 8 ball only, each of your balls off the table was a point and a win was worth 10. So a perfect night would be 80 points for a player.

I played in aleague with this structure and really disliked it as it changed the game of 8 ball too much. It rewarded bad play of weaker players, by encouraging players to make easy balls to get points instead of solving problems and playing smart, where you dont pocket

Are there any leagues that divide the league by general skill levels and then play races to 4 or 5 without handicaps as that is the best for progressing as a player imo. Handicaps leagues hinder development.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I preferred APA because you played all your games in one race at one time. So ideally I got my # of beers right beforehand. The BCA based league I played in you played round robin so you played here and there all night. I had a better chance to get in a groove or build momentum in a race.

Plus there was no handicap in the BCA based league I played in so you might get some really strong teams which made the not so good teams more prone to drop out and there goes their weekly dues/fees that was going to be prize money. In APA your total of five players played handicaps can only add up to 23 or something like that which seems more fair to me unless your on the stacked BCA team.

No timeouts in the BCA league I played in. APA has timeouts to provide for player development for less experienced players if you have someone decent to coach. The lower your handicap the more timeouts available.

The BCA based league I played in wasn't a true BCA league so in reality it might have been different

The APA league I played in was before they went to the point system score keeping so I don't know if other rules have changed also since then. I only played 8 ball league as that's all they had in my area back then.

8B is still game based, the points based is only for 9B.

 

[trob]

Both are fine. Don’t listen to the either one are assholes. You’ll find assholes in all walks of life including all pool leagues.
I prefer apa especially apa masters simply because I get to play my whole set at once. I’m playing acs this year for the first Time in a long time and honestly I remember what I hate about it. Playing 1 game a set then sitting and hour until you play another game is not enjoyable and just a waste of a night to me.

 

[David in FL]

Another strong vote for BCA over APA all day long.

If they have one in your area I would check out the USA Pool League as well. Same rules as BCA and also Fargo based.

 

[hang-the-9]

BCA or USAPL are the best leagues for rules and players by far that I have seen or been part of. Less sandbagging as well. In terms of leagues overall from a lot of play locally, travel to other areas and hearing stories from other players, I would rank APA as my least favorite by a good amount, then NAPA/TAP about equal then BCA and USAPL also about equal.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

BCA (or ACS/CCS which is very similar, just a smaller Vegas tournament)

In our BCA league we don't have stacked teams, rather we have a draft at the beginning on each year (Sept-April).

If we have 10 teams, the top 10 averages from the last year become captains and we do a draft (6 player teams/5 play per night) in reverse order of averages. i.e. 10th picks first.

After a round of picking the total averages for each team (2 players after round 1) is totalled up and the picking order for the next round is re-ordered ... still with the lowest total picking first. Repeat till each team has 6 players total.

This results in very balanced teams and makes things much more competitive for everyone.

Money is paid out for winning team(s) and top averages and some wildcard picks.

Same league has been running this way for around 20 years now.

 

[sam74]

8B is still game based, the points based is only for 9B.

They changed the 8 ball score keeping back in 2011 or so in my home area. I'm not exactly sure of the difference but it sounded like more work. When I played you just marked a stroke after the second shooter of the first game when their turn was over throughout the race keeping track of those strokes in each individual game and the game winner. And ideally marked safety play which no one hardly ever played safety except in playoffs.

 

[APA Operator]

BCA (or ACS/CCS which is very similar, just a smaller Vegas tournament)

In our BCA league we don't have stacked teams, rather we have a draft at the beginning on each year (Sept-April).

If we have 10 teams, the top 10 averages from the last year become captains and we do a draft (6 player teams/5 play per night) in reverse order of averages. i.e. 10th picks first.

After a round of picking the total averages for each team (2 players after round 1) is totalled up and the picking order for the next round is re-ordered ... still with the lowest total picking first. Repeat till each team has 6 players total.

This results in very balanced teams and makes things much more competitive for everyone.

Money is paid out for winning team(s) and top averages and some wildcard picks.

Same league has been running this way for around 20 years now.

That draft thing sounds interesting, but I think it would only work in in-house leagues. Is yours in-house? I've always had trouble keeping a Master's league together due to stacking, but maybe this idea could work there too.

 

[purple4]

I play in both. I consider my APA for fun and my BCA to win.

APA 8 ball example bar box travel league - As a skill level 4 I play a race to 3 first and shut out my opponent. The next four players all lose their races. I don't mind at all because I am there to hang out maybe shoot , maybe not, help weaker players, watch stronger players, and have fun socializing. Only 20% in APA will be stone cold sober.

BCA 9 ball on 9 foot tables example - I play a 680 fargo when I am 411 fargo. He has a race to 11, I have a race to 4. He has to spot me 7 games. If I win even one or two racks it is huge for my team. In our BCA ties are decided by racks won. If he only beats me 11-9 our next match could be a 7-2 victory and we are ahead 3 total racks. This is real pressure and I want to win because winning team takes home $350-$400 dollars each person every session give or take. Second place takes home $180-$200 each every session give or take. This is where my skill increases the most and is the night I reserve for playing serious pool. There is no messing around in our BCA 9 ball league everyone is serious, cordial, 80% sober, and there to win.

I played 3 or 4 sessions of APA 8 ball before I was recruited onto the BCA 9 ball team.

 

[Pocket Change]

OK, this is a lot to take in. I like the idea of joining one and subbing in the other. I'll have to explore that option. I just want to get out and play. I'm a 'comeback' player with no idea of ever becoming a top flight player, just want to have fun and get social with others that share my passion.

My Fargo is 454'P'/Rob. 22 but that is not anything to really go by until I get a lot more rated games under my belt.

Thanks for all the input. -Ed L.

 

[zetetikos]

BCA (or ACS/CCS which is very similar, just a smaller Vegas tournament)

In our BCA league we don't have stacked teams, rather we have a draft at the beginning on each year (Sept-April).

If we have 10 teams, the top 10 averages from the last year become captains and we do a draft (6 player teams/5 play per night) in reverse order of averages. i.e. 10th picks first.

After a round of picking the total averages for each team (2 players after round 1) is totalled up and the picking order for the next round is re-ordered ... still with the lowest total picking first. Repeat till each team has 6 players total.

This results in very balanced teams and makes things much more competitive for everyone.

Money is paid out for winning team(s) and top averages and some wildcard picks.

Same league has been running this way for around 20 years now.

Interesting concept never heard of this format. Though with all the different types of people who play leagues, how do they deal with people who can't stand to be around each other, like I've seen people who are so vile that I couldn't stand to be in a team with them, spouting racism or politics non stop?

 

[mikepage]

Interesting concept never heard of this format. Though with all the different types of people who play leagues, how do they deal with people who can't stand to be around each other, like I've seen people who are so vile that I couldn't stand to be in a team with them, spouting racism or politics non stop?

A good option that gets similar balanced, competitive teams like a draft is to use a FargoRate cap. This allows friends to play together.
Suppose you have an existing league division with the same similar story, 12 teams for which,

1 or 2 teams are in the running to win with nobody else having a chance
5 more teams are in a competition for 3rd place. Each can ruin the day of a top team but not consistently
5 teams have no chance

You'd be amazed how good this division becomes when you put the rating cap just below the top 2 teams. Some of the middle teams will choose to stay the same and they will now be competitive. The free agents from the top two teams will shore up other teams, and the whole group gets bunched closer together.

 

[Chili Palmer]

A good option that gets similar balanced, competitive teams like a draft is to use a FargoRate cap. This allows friends to play together.
Suppose you have an existing league division with the same similar story, 12 teams for which,

1 or 2 teams are in the running to win with nobody else having a chance
5 more teams are in a competition for 3rd place. Each can ruin the day of a top team but not consistently
5 teams have no chance

You'd be amazed how good this division becomes when you put the rating cap just below the top 2 teams. Some of the middle teams will choose to stay the same and they will now be competitive. The free agents from the top two teams will shore up other teams, and the whole group gets bunched closer together.

Oh, so just like the APA Skill Level cap

 

[mikepage]

Oh, so just like the APA Skill Level cap

There is a critical distinction. Imagine for simplicity both ratings are accurate and there are no players above 700 nor below 200, and we say

3 = 200 to 300
4 = 301 to 400
5 = 401 to 500
6 = 501 to 600
7 = 601 to 700

The rating cap is either 23 or 2050

3 5's and 2 4's adds to 23
3 middle 5's (450) and 2 middle 4's (350) add to 2050
So far so good

Now, in APA do 2 strong 5's and 3 strong 4's. They are still 23. But their Fargo Rating might be 2250. The problem of allowing players at the upper end of each skill range to pair together is they have a big incentive to do that. That puts them well above the average 23 team and it worse than that. If you are a team of 3 weak 5's, you are only going to be able to attract weak 4's or another weak 5 and a weak 3. So it gets spread even further.

The Fargo Rating cap makes the teams much more competitive.

Same problem with scotch doubles. If you say a team must be two B's or an A and a C, that sounds balanced. But it isn't. All of the strong B's are paired with other strong B's, and all of the strong C's are paired with strong A's. If you are a weak A or a weak B, there. is no way to get on a competitive team. Saying the team cap is 1100 points solves this.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

Interesting concept never heard of this format. Though with all the different types of people who play leagues, how do they deal with people who can't stand to be around each other, like I've seen people who are so vile that I couldn't stand to be in a team with them, spouting racism or politics non stop?

They'd be kicked out of the league. We've kicked people out before for similar things.

The captains know who they don't want on their team and once you pick someone, they have input on who they want/don't want on their team. Of course there are a few people that get drafted low because they're not a desirable teammate for some reason or other.

The league works this way because it's a group of 80 or so people that have been playing together for years... probably a core of 40 players that haven't missed a session in 15+ years + 20-40 more that come and go, new players, etc. league is usually around 10 teams of 6 ... sometime more. Most was 16 teams when a nice new hall opened.

 

[heater451]

They changed the 8 ball score keeping back in 2011 or so in my home area. I'm not exactly sure of the difference but it sounded like more work. When I played you just marked a stroke after the second shooter of the first game when their turn was over throughout the race keeping track of those strokes in each individual game and the game winner. And ideally marked safety play which no one hardly ever played safety except in playoffs.

The APA keeping of innings and defensive shots is the same. Where the points come in is after the player match is completed, and is based on the loser's performance.

A player match is worth 2 or 3 points. In the case of a sweep--the loser does not win a single game, the score would be 3-0. If the loser gets on the hill, the score would be 2-1 (1 point credited for the hill). If the loser gets at least 1 game, but less than enough to be on the hill, the score would be 2-0.

To summarize:
Loser is swept (0 wins); 3 points to winner, 0 points to loser
Loser gets on the hill; 2 points, 1 point
Loser 1 game, but < hill; 2 points, 0 points

 

[The_JV]

For me it looks like joining a league is the best way to get me out & playing more often. Right now my best option is a weekly 9-Ball 'chips' tournament but that is not enough for my needs/wants. It looks like I have a choice to join either an APA or a BCA league. I have not heard back from the BCA contact yet. The local APA group has my info.

I've been reading a lot about these leagues here with the pros & cons of each (& league play in general) but I'd like to get some direct input before I make a decision.

So, what do I need to know about the differences to help me make a decision?

I've played both, but bear in mind I'm speaking from a place wherein I'm a dominate player in either org.

Social Aspect:
-APA coins itself as a social league. However I found I played the same handful of players session after session. You may or may compete against those with a similar SL. Match ups are a shell game played by captains to gain an advantage.

-In the BCA format, you will literally play everyone on the opposing team. SL doesn't matter in this regard. Some may be well above you weight class. Others you may destroy.

Match Format:
-APA is a set a racks to a defined race based on SL comparison. Strong players enjoy this format because they can drop a rack and still win the match. I really liked the set format because of this but simply grew tired of the org.

-BCA is a single rack against each member of the opposing team. This can be torturous because there is a good possibility that you may never touch the table. If you cannot handle a zero beside your name on the score sheet, then you may want to consider APA. Max individual score is 85, lowest possible 0. I know of one player who floats on the higher end of the spectrum that as the current record for lowest score, at 3 for the entire night.

Rules:
-As mentioned above. The APA "take what you make" break rule can make the game harder. Allowing for slop makes it easier. Having breathing room in match play makes it very forgiving. Something not mentioned on the "which is easier" list above. You can completely launch the CB off the table during the APA break and get a redo. IMHO, the rules in APA are scripted for the entry level player.

-The BCA "open" break rule makes for a follow up shot almost a guarantee, but that doesn't translate to an automatic win. Call ball, call pocket makes the game tighter and in comparison I can't count the amount of times I've seen APA players "spray and pray" into wins.

Scoring:
-BCA is simple math. You get 10pts for the win and an additional point for each ball your opponent has left on the table.

-APA counts innings, defensive shots, score etc... They have online tutorials on how to do it correctly. The player scoring is forced to monitor the action at all times to perform scoring correctly.

Overall and in my experience with both. BCA is a more social league with generally a higher standard of play. Although BCA is more competitive, I have found that APA tends to have more low brow players looking to stand on their mother's throats to get a better view to see if they can call some kind of foul to gain an advantage. Arguments abound within the local APA leagues. Whereas the BCA version seems to be more even keel and newb friendly.

The good thing about both leagues is that you don't need to sign a contract that holds you to playing an entire season. Try one, and move on if you don't like it.

Enjoy

 

[David in FL]

I've played both, but bear in mind I'm speaking from a place wherein I'm a dominate player in either org.

Social Aspect:
-APA coins itself as a social league. However I found I played the same handful of players session after session. You may or may compete against those with a similar SL. Match ups are a shell game played by captains to gain an advantage.

-In the BCA format, you will literally play everyone on the opposing team. SL doesn't matter in this regard. Some may be well above you weight class. Others you may destroy.

Match Format:
-APA is a set a racks to a defined race based on SL comparison. Strong players enjoy this format because they can drop a rack and still win the match. I really liked the set format because of this but simply grew tired of the org.

-BCA is a single rack against each member of the opposing team. This can be torturous because there is a good possibility that you may never touch the table. If you cannot handle a zero beside your name on the score sheet, then you may want to consider APA. Max individual score is 85, lowest possible 0. I know of one player who floats on the higher end of the spectrum that as the current record for lowest score, at 3 for the entire night.

Rules:
-As mentioned above. The APA "take what you make" break rule can make the game harder. Allowing for slop makes it easier. Having breathing room in match play makes it very forgiving. Something not mentioned on the "which is easier" list above. You can completely launch the CB off the table during the APA break and get a redo. IMHO, the rules in APA are scripted for the entry level player.

-The BCA "open" break rule makes for a follow up shot almost a guarantee, but that doesn't translate to an automatic win. Call ball, call pocket makes the game tighter and in comparison I can't count the amount of times I've seen APA players "spray and pray" into wins.

Scoring:
-BCA is simple math. You get 10pts for the win and an additional point for each ball your opponent has left on the table.

-APA counts innings, defensive shots, score etc... They have online tutorials on how to do it correctly. The player scoring is forced to monitor the action at all times to perform scoring correctly.

Overall and in my experience with both. BCA is a more social league with generally a higher standard of play. Although BCA is more competitive, I have found that APA tends to have more low brow players looking to stand on their mother's throats to get a better view to see if they can call some kind of foul to gain an advantage. Arguments abound within the local APA leagues. Whereas the BCA version seems to be more even keel and newb friendly.

The good thing about both leagues is that you don't need to sign a contract that holds you to playing an entire season. Try one, and move on if you don't like it.

Enjoy

Well said.

Interestingly APA does not allow junior players compete in the "adult leagues" while USAPL and BCA do.

We have one 9 year old that plays in one of our USAPL leagues who carries a solid 400 Fargo.

The entire league is pretty damn proud of him, even though nobody wants to play and potentially get beat by the little shit!

 

[Texas Carom Club]

bca is the absolute easiest to sandbag with multiple venues to dog games via tournaments, league game and salotto

 

[The_JV]

bca is the absolute easiest to sandbag with multiple venues to dog games via tournaments, league game and salotto

Could literally be said about any handicapping system.