BCA Rule

[jojopiff]

Player A(Joe) from Team A asks player from Team B(Billy, this person wasn't playing) to watch the hit. Apparently, it was CLEARLY a foul so Billy doesn't say anything as it was so obviously a foul. Now, the person from Team B(Fred) playing approaches the table and isn't taking ball in hand. At this point, Billy (who was originally asked to ref the hit) says it was a foul and it's ball in hand.

Team A says that's a foul cause it's coaching. Billy from Team B says it's not since he was the ref.

I thought this was pretty clear as to what the call was but curious what others think.

 

[Cornerman]

Player A(Joe) from Team A asks player from Team B(Billy, this person wasn't playing) to watch the hit. Apparently, it was CLEARLY a foul so Billy doesn't say anything as it was so obviously a foul. Now, the person from Team B(Fred) playing approaches the table and isn't taking ball in hand. At this point, Billy (who was originally asked to ref the hit) says it was a foul and it's ball in hand.

Team A says that's a foul cause it's coaching. Billy from Team B says it's not since he was the ref.

I thought this was pretty clear as to what the call was but curious what others think.

Player A (Joe) should smack his teammates up side the head and then leave.

Fred should have just said, "foul" immediately for humor's sake.

 

[Banks]

Player A(Joe) from Team A asks player from Team B(Billy, this person wasn't playing) to watch the hit. Apparently, it was CLEARLY a foul so Billy doesn't say anything as it was so obviously a foul. Now, the person from Team B(Fred) playing approaches the table and isn't taking ball in hand. At this point, Billy (who was originally asked to ref the hit) says it was a foul and it's ball in hand.

Team A says that's a foul cause it's coaching. Billy from Team B says it's not since he was the ref.

I thought this was pretty clear as to what the call was but curious what others think.

If he's asked to watch the hit, he should vocalize what he sees. Team A needs to make that move up from diapers to underoos.

 

[lorider]

telling a player he has bih is not coaching ...therefore not a foul.

much the same as a player playing 9 ball is about to shoot the 5 when the 4 is still on the table. a team mate calls out ....wrong ball is not coaching.

this stuff comes up all the time in all leagues... makes you wonder .....does any one actually read the rule books ?

 

[jojopiff]

telling a player he has bih is not coaching ...therefore not a foul.

much the same as a player playing 9 ball is about to shoot the 5 when the 4 is still on the table. a team mate calls out ....wrong ball is not coaching.

this stuff comes up all the time in all leagues... makes you wonder .....does any one actually read the rule books ?

Not attacking you but since you said it...

BCA Rulebook page 41, Rule 1-41 #2

2. It is a foul if you receive unsolicited assistance from a spectator associated with you
(e.g., spouse/partner, relative, teammate). “Assistance” includes being alerted to an
opponent’s foul.

I wasn't involved in this match but am a "rep" of sorts and thought both teams were being whiners. But, IMO when the guy watching the hit declined to say "foul" cause it was so obvious, that concluded his time as ref and when he told his player it was a foul, was then himself committing a foul.

 

[Banks]

Not attacking you but since you said it...

BCA Rulebook page 41, Rule 1-41 #2

2. It is a foul if you receive unsolicited assistance from a spectator associated with you
(e.g., spouse/partner, relative, teammate). “Assistance” includes being alerted to an
opponent’s foul.

I wasn't involved in this match but am a "rep" of sorts and thought both teams were being whiners. But, IMO when the guy watching the hit declined to say "foul" cause it was so obvious, that concluded his time as ref and when he told his player it was a foul, was then himself committing a foul.

When he was asked to watch the hit, he was no longer a "spectator", he was involved in the match as a limited ref. No foul, but he faltered in performing his duty when he failed to vocalize the results of the hit that he was asked to watch. I'd be pissed if somebody tried to tell me otherwise.

As it states in the handbook/rulebook..

9-3 Calling Fouls
1. Referees will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur.
2. When called to a table, a referee will call all fouls that occur while the referee is at the
table.
3. When making a ruling, a referee will announce the ruling and, if calling a foul, a brief
description of the foul or rule that was violated. Some examples are:
“Good hit”
“Foul – double hit”;
“Foul – no cushion after contact”;
“Foul – contacted the 3-ball first” (if the 3-ball was an illegal object ball);
"Foul – object ball jumped off table".
When a scratch occurs or if the cue ball is jumped off the table, it is not necessary for the
referee to announce a foul or the basis for the foul.
4. In the matter of judgment calls as referred to in Rule 9-1, a referee is not responsible
for explaining to a player what methods were used to determine a ruling. At their
discretion, a referee may briefly describe the violation, but they are not responsible for
giving a player a detailed description of how the ruling was determined.
5. After calling a foul that results in ball in hand, the referee will pick up or retrieve the
cue ball and hand it to the incoming player.
6. A referee will not call a foul or penalize a player in a dispute over a shot that was
unseen by the referee if the call would have been a judgment call and the referee cannot
clearly determine that a foul occurred. However, if the unseen act involves a rules
application, then referees and event officials will make every reasonable effort to ensure
that the correct and appropriate ruling is made.

 

[jojopiff]

When he was asked to watch the hit, he was no longer a "spectator", he was involved in the match as a limited ref. No foul, but he faltered in performing his duty when he failed to vocalize the results of the hit that he was asked to watch. I'd be pissed if somebody tried to tell me otherwise.

As it states in the handbook/rulebook..

9-3 Calling Fouls
1. Referees will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur.
2. When called to a table, a referee will call all fouls that occur while the referee is at the
table.
3. When making a ruling, a referee will announce the ruling and, if calling a foul, a brief
description of the foul or rule that was violated. Some examples are:
“Good hit”
“Foul – double hit”;
“Foul – no cushion after contact”;
“Foul – contacted the 3-ball first” (if the 3-ball was an illegal object ball);
"Foul – object ball jumped off table".
When a scratch occurs or if the cue ball is jumped off the table, it is not necessary for the
referee to announce a foul or the basis for the foul.
4. In the matter of judgment calls as referred to in Rule 9-1, a referee is not responsible
for explaining to a player what methods were used to determine a ruling. At their
discretion, a referee may briefly describe the violation, but they are not responsible for
giving a player a detailed description of how the ruling was determined.
5. After calling a foul that results in ball in hand, the referee will pick up or retrieve the
cue ball and hand it to the incoming player.
6. A referee will not call a foul or penalize a player in a dispute over a shot that was
unseen by the referee if the call would have been a judgment call and the referee cannot
clearly determine that a foul occurred. However, if the unseen act involves a rules
application, then referees and event officials will make every reasonable effort to ensure
that the correct and appropriate ruling is made.

Agreed. My opinion is that he had completed his ref duties and was then his teammate and it's a foul. His stance was that he was the ref so it was ok to tell him foul. At what point does his "ref duties" end? After the player first shoots? After the player approaches the table?

 

[eightandout]

why would you ask someone involved in a match to call a hit?

 

[Banks]

Agreed. My opinion is that he had completed his ref duties and was then his teammate and it's a foul. His stance was that he was the ref so it was ok to tell him foul. At what point does his "ref duties" end? After the player first shoots? After the player approaches the table?

I wouldn't want to play a match with somebody that would do that. If I was told BiH after a minute, they'd complain.. if the ref said nothing and I took BiH, they'd complain.. screw it. Somebody does that when matching up and I'm calling it quits whether I'm up or down in the set.

 

[hang-the-9]

why would you ask someone involved in a match to call a hit?

That is pretty much the deal, if they were all friendly enough to ask a player from the other team to watch a hit, they should not have raised a stink about what happened.

We always call a player outside of either team to watch or the league rep if he's around.

I don't see it as coaching though as the other player was brought in to be a ref, meaning he stepped outside his team-mate role.

 

[trob]

Player A(Joe) from Team A asks player from Team B(Billy, this person wasn't playing) to watch the hit. Apparently, it was CLEARLY a foul so Billy doesn't say anything as it was so obviously a foul. Now, the person from Team B(Fred) playing approaches the table and isn't taking ball in hand. At this point, Billy (who was originally asked to ref the hit) says it was a foul and it's ball in hand.

Team A says that's a foul cause it's coaching. Billy from Team B says it's not since he was the ref.

I thought this was pretty clear as to what the call was but curious what others think.

yes technically in our bca and acs leagues the shooter must call the foul. The person watching the hit would only be asked what he saw if there was then a difference in opinion.

 

[jojopiff]

why would you ask someone involved in a match to call a hit?

I don't play on this particular night this occurred but I do play against both teams on a different night and this is our norm. It's very competitive but usually very friendly and no bullshit like this. I was forced to give my opinion due to my connection with the league but I personally never have these things happen cause when I foul I either pick up the cue ball and hand it to them or hit the ball with my stick as they approach so they know.

 

[trob]

telling a player he has bih is not coaching ...therefore not a foul.

much the same as a player playing 9 ball is about to shoot the 5 when the 4 is still on the table. a team mate calls out ....wrong ball is not coaching.

this stuff comes up all the time in all leagues... makes you wonder .....does any one actually read the rule books ?

Depends what league.. Not every league follows the bca rule book to the letter. for example telling a player he's shooting the wrong ball in our leagues is a foul. You can't tell your player anything while he is at the table. Would I complain if someone did it? no I'm a gentlemen's rules kind of guy...but some people aren't that nice.
Apa is different they allow anyone on your team to tell them it's a foul.

 

[trob]

When he was asked to watch the hit, he was no longer a "spectator", he was involved in the match as a limited ref. No foul, but he faltered in performing his duty when he failed to vocalize the results of the hit that he was asked to watch. I'd be pissed if somebody tried to tell me otherwise.

As it states in the handbook/rulebook..

9-3 Calling Fouls
1. Referees will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur.
2. When called to a table, a referee will call all fouls that occur while the referee is at the
table.
3. When making a ruling, a referee will announce the ruling and, if calling a foul, a brief
description of the foul or rule that was violated. Some examples are:
“Good hit”
“Foul – double hit”;
“Foul – no cushion after contact”;
“Foul – contacted the 3-ball first” (if the 3-ball was an illegal object ball);
"Foul – object ball jumped off table".
When a scratch occurs or if the cue ball is jumped off the table, it is not necessary for the
referee to announce a foul or the basis for the foul.
4. In the matter of judgment calls as referred to in Rule 9-1, a referee is not responsible
for explaining to a player what methods were used to determine a ruling. At their
discretion, a referee may briefly describe the violation, but they are not responsible for
giving a player a detailed description of how the ruling was determined.
5. After calling a foul that results in ball in hand, the referee will pick up or retrieve the
cue ball and hand it to the incoming player.
6. A referee will not call a foul or penalize a player in a dispute over a shot that was
unseen by the referee if the call would have been a judgment call and the referee cannot
clearly determine that a foul occurred. However, if the unseen act involves a rules
application, then referees and event officials will make every reasonable effort to ensure
that the correct and appropriate ruling is made.

What rule book is that out of? I believe you play apa correct?

 

[Banks]

What rule book is that out of? I believe you play apa correct?

I play both APA and BCA. That's directly from the handbook on the playbca site.

 

[jojopiff]

Depends what league.. Not every league follows the bca rule book to the letter. for example telling a player he's shooting the wrong ball in our leagues is a foul. You can't tell your player anything while he is at the table. Would I complain if someone did it? no I'm a gentlemen's rules kind of guy...but some people aren't that nice.
Apa is different they allow anyone on your team to tell them it's a foul.

Exactly the same rules here for both. The issue which I don't think I made clear earlier is there was a 1-2 minute lapse the player was standing the table trying to figure out what he was going to do, it was then the player/ref informed him he had ball in hand.

It wasn't a 10 second later he informed him type of deal, to my understanding some time had passed before verbalizing he had ball in hand and the player was studying the table.

 

[trob]

That is pretty much the deal, if they were all friendly enough to ask a player from the other team to watch a hit, they should not have raised a stink about what happened.

We always call a player outside of either team to watch or the league rep if he's around.

I don't see it as coaching though as the other player was brought in to be a ref, meaning he stepped outside his team-mate role.

Usually a player from each team watches the hit around here. You guys act like your new to the game and don't know or have forgotten rules and how they're handled change from town to town or city to city lol It's one of the maddening things about this game lol

 

[trob]

Exactly the same rules here for both. The issue which I don't think I made clear earlier is there was a 1-2 minute lapse the player was standing the table trying to figure out what he was going to do, it was then the player/ref informed him he had ball in hand.

It wasn't a 10 second later he informed him type of deal, to my understanding some time had passed before verbalizing he had ball in hand and the player was studying the table.

Exactly around here it would have been a foul to tell him he had ball in hand.. essentially he didn't think or missed the foul and was playing it from where it stood and you gave him information to help him.

 

[trob]

I play both APA and BCA. That's directly from the handbook on the playbca site.

Well remember not all bca leagues play directly from the handbook. You have to when you goto play in regional or national tournaments but at your home leagues you can make amendments to the rules as you see fit. Bca doesn't care.. I don't think apa is quite as liberal.

 

[jojopiff]

I'm the Vice President of the league and so I was asked what the call should have been. (They ended up not having any fouls called but the player chose to play the cue ball where it lied)

My personal opinion if I was playing is I wouldn't have called a foul for coaching but since I had to give an opinion for both sides... I thought that when the player/ref didn't make a "Foul" call because the foul was so obvious then that was, in fact, him calling a foul.

I believe that once the player approached the table he has to have some personal responsibility and know he has ball in hand or ASK the other player or the ref if it was a foul.

I don't like the "letter of the law" approach in these kinds of situations and prefer the "spirit of the rule" but so goes with the territory.