BCAPL "ball in hand" error or poor choice

D

derangedhermit

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The 2010-2011 BCAPL definition of "ball in hand" includes: "The cue ball remains "in hand" from the moment it is picked up until the next stroke is taken."

The problem is that "the next stroke is taken" is vague, and either main interpretation is probably not what is intended.

If it means when the stroke is complete, that means ball in hand extends until the end of the follow-through after cue ball contact (see definition of "stroke"). This is clearly not what is intended.

If it means the beginning of the stroke: a stroke starts with the forward movement of the cue (see definition of "stroke"). I think that a player expects to be able to begin a stroke, stop before cue tip contact with cue ball, and still have ball in hand. I would be surprised if the BCAPL, and players in general, felt otherwise.

More precise and better matching player expectations would be:

"The cue ball remains "in hand" from the moment it is picked up until the next shot begins."

Changing from "next stroke is taken" to "next shot begins" makes it precisely clear the player has ball in hand until, and not past, the moment of cue tip contact with cue ball, under the definition of "shot".

There are also problems with "it is picked up", but I haven't thought it through yet. For example, picked up by whom? Often the player who fouls moves the ball to acknowledge the incoming player has BIH. And "picked up" is too limiting - sometimes the CB is rolled to a new position - this should be OK. The definition should allow more general ways of moving the CB to a new location, and distinguish between who is doing the moving.
 
Hmmmm....

I think you are getting a lil bit too literal here. Basically, BIH is until the shooter takes his shot, period.
Unless it's an obvious foul, such as cueball jumpin off the table or scratching, I usually ask my opponent if it's ball in hand? Once he/she says "yes", then I grab the cueball.
I can put it anywhere, and I can place it more than one time on the table if I didn't like the 1st spot. Until my cue makes contact with the cueball, I have the option of moving it again. It doesn't matter if I'm down on the shot taking practice strokes.
 
tucson9ball said:
Until my cue makes contact with the cueball, I have the option of moving it again. It doesn't matter if I'm down on the shot taking practice strokes.
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For this one occassion, you need to clarifty your statement. "Until my TIP makes contact with the cueball" is literally correct. Not my cue. Know someone is going to say the front of the TIP. In real life, a ref is going to call you for moving the cueball around with any part of the tip.

Lyn
 
DAMN, all these lawyers on AZB.....LOL

You are right though, when the tip makes contact.:smile:
 
tucson9ball said:
Have you checked in the 2011-2012 handbook? Maybe the wording has changed?
Click to expand...

I got the rules as a .pdf from playbca.com, from the "General Rules" link. That document says 2010-2011. One would think the BCAPL would either put the most current version of the rules online, or no version at all.
 
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If it's really bothering you, why don't you PM tatcat2000 and ask him to respond to this thread? Then you'll get it straight from the horse's mouth rather than us all speculating.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
If it's really bothering you, why don't you PM tatcat2000 and ask him to respond to this thread? Then you'll get it straight from the horse's mouth rather than us all speculating.
Click to expand...
I'll do that, thanks. It's not eating me alive; I just came across it while studying the rules (for the first time).
 
thommy said:
If this is the kind of shit that comes up for argument in the pool leagues,
I'LL PASS:cool:
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Think this is more like the kind of $hit that comes up on internet billiards threads ;). The OP is correct on one aspect. Knowing and understanding the rules we all play by.

Lyn
 
Brief reply...

I am currently under the weight of a deadline for the next edition, but can spend just a second on this. I don't have time for an entire analysis of the particular syntax, but...

Breaking down your main point, what you are apparently missing is that the term "stroke" is defined, and that definition includes the cue tip striking the cue ball. That observation should settle about 90% of the objection.

If you want to argue that the word "taken" is vague, I don't have the time now. I'll try to look at it in the next day or two, but we go to press in less than a week, and there are more pressing issues, pun fully intended.

We have discussed just dumping the term "stroke" in favor of "shot", but have decided against it for the fourth time, at least for the next edition. "Stroke" comes in handy in a few other places.

If you want to argue that, because we define "stroke" as including the forward motion of the cue after it strikes the CB, and that somehow that means that you still have BIH after the tip contacts the ball through the time the cue stops moving forward, then I will do two things: 1) bring it up at the conference for the next edition in 2014; 2) wonder how much time you have on your hands.:smile:

Seriously though - we take ALL suggestions - well over 200 every year, and give them consideration. Some more, some less, but every single one gets looked at. Just bad timing for this one...e-mail Mr. Stock after Nationals and yours will be at the top of the list in 2014. As I said, we have struggled a little over the years with the stroke/shot thing, and I'm sure it will be looked at again.

But also please admit to yourself, even if just a little, that at some point an assumption that the reader has some knowledge of the progress of the game must take place, and - oh Lord, dare I say it - a little common sense must apply. We could very easily write a book that is twice as long but contains essentially no more information. It has to stop somewhere, and where to draw the line in the throughness of defining and explaining every little point is a never ending battle.

Again - review the BCAPL definition of "stroke". It answers a lot.

For CB in hand - you did not read thouroughly. The rule clearly states it begins "Once you have picked up..." That takes care of "who". If you want to argue that "you" might imply someone other than the incoming player - again, I don't have the time right now.

We are ahead of you on the rest. The next edition has already been edited to read "picked up or moved"... Also, there is a new Applied Ruling that covers the opponent moving the CB to you after a foul.

Buddy

P.S. - I love the stop sign thing. It's so "Rain Man"...:rolleyes:
 
derangedhermit said:
The 2010-2011 BCAPL definition of "ball in hand" includes: "The cue ball remains "in hand" from the moment it is picked up until the next stroke is taken."

The problem is that "the next stroke is taken" is vague, and either main interpretation is probably not what is intended.

If it means when the stroke is complete, that means ball in hand extends until the end of the follow-through after cue ball contact (see definition of "stroke"). This is clearly not what is intended.

If it means the beginning of the stroke: a stroke starts with the forward movement of the cue (see definition of "stroke"). I think that a player expects to be able to begin a stroke, stop before cue tip contact with cue ball, and still have ball in hand. I would be surprised if the BCAPL, and players in general, felt otherwise.

More precise and better matching player expectations would be:

"The cue ball remains "in hand" from the moment it is picked up until the next shot begins."

Changing from "next stroke is taken" to "next shot begins" makes it precisely clear the player has ball in hand until, and not past, the moment of cue tip contact with cue ball, under the definition of "shot".

There are also problems with "it is picked up", but I haven't thought it through yet. For example, picked up by whom? Often the player who fouls moves the ball to acknowledge the incoming player has BIH. And "picked up" is too limiting - sometimes the CB is rolled to a new position - this should be OK. The definition should allow more general ways of moving the CB to a new location, and distinguish between who is doing the moving.
Click to expand...
Ha! When someone asks you what time it is, do you say: "Do you mean what time is it now, or what time was it when you asked me?"
 
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brechbt said:
Ha! When someone asks you what time it is, do you say: "Do you mean what time is it now, or what time was it when you asked me?"
Click to expand...

It depends on what time zone I'm in, and quite possibly which specific longitude. Never ask that question of an ex-Navy QM. ;)

Maybe we should just write the whole book in Charles Dodgson-ese...with Tweedledum and Tweedledee as editors. I'll let them answer your time question.:grin:

B

Edit - wow...getting stupid tired now. Didn't see you were talking to OP and not me. I still like the whole Alice idea though...
 
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tatcat2000 said:
I am currently under the weight of a deadline for the next edition, but can spend just a second on this. I don't have time for an entire analysis of the particular syntax, but...

Breaking down your main point, what you are apparently missing is that the term "stroke" is defined, and that definition includes the cue tip striking the cue ball. That observation should settle about 90% of the objection.

If you want to argue that the word "taken" is vague, I don't have the time now. I'll try to look at it in the next day or two, but we go to press in less than a week, and there are more pressing issues, pun fully intended.

We have discussed just dumping the term "stroke" in favor of "shot", but have decided against it for the fourth time, at least for the next edition. "Stroke" comes in handy in a few other places.

If you want to argue that, because we define "stroke" as including the forward motion of the cue after it strikes the CB, and that somehow that means that you still have BIH after the tip contacts the ball through the time the cue stops moving forward, then I will do two things: 1) bring it up at the conference for the next edition in 2014; 2) wonder how much time you have on your hands.:smile:

Seriously though - we take ALL suggestions - well over 200 every year, and give them consideration. Some more, some less, but every single one gets looked at. Just bad timing for this one...e-mail Mr. Stock after Nationals and yours will be at the top of the list in 2014. As I said, we have struggled a little over the years with the stroke/shot thing, and I'm sure it will be looked at again.

But also please admit to yourself, even if just a little, that at some point an assumption that the reader has some knowledge of the progress of the game must take place, and - oh Lord, dare I say it - a little common sense must apply. We could very easily write a book that is twice as long but contains essentially no more information. It has to stop somewhere, and where to draw the line in the throughness of defining and explaining every little point is a never ending battle.

Again - review the BCAPL definition of "stroke". It answers a lot.

For CB in hand - you did not read thouroughly. The rule clearly states it begins "Once you have picked up..." That takes care of "who". If you want to argue that "you" might imply someone other than the incoming player - again, I don't have the time right now.

We are ahead of you on the rest. The next edition has already been edited to read "picked up or moved"... Also, there is a new Applied Ruling that covers the opponent moving the CB to you after a foul.

Buddy

P.S. - I love the stop sign thing. It's so "Rain Man"...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

This would solve most problems in the league setting and pool table. Speaking for my BCA league everyone has a near complete understanding of the rules and theres only one or 2 guys that try to pull this crap of the quoting the rule book and finding a vague or unclear area and use it to their advantage. Unfortunately one is on my team but for me I have no interest in that type behavior. Play pool and may the best player win.
 
oops...

Apology to OP, at least for taking him to task for not reading the definition of stroke when he included it twice in the post. However, since "shot" also includes action after tip contact, using it doesn't really help.

Not to fear though...you may rest easy. The next edition has an edit that solves the whole problem.

B
 
cardiac kid said:
In real life, a ref is going to call you for moving the cueball around with any part of the tip.Lyn
Click to expand...

Not so much. Under both BCAPL and WSR, any part of the tip may be used, including the "front" or "top", depending on how you want to describe it. The test for a foul is a "forward stroke motion" of the cue. However, I don't recommend the practice. BCAPL 1-38-1 and WSR 1.5 second sentence apply.

B
 
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