best hand positions to ensure maintaining level cue during stroke- ?

[WobblyStroke]

just curious..trying to picture this in my mind and am not quite getting it
using pendulum stroke.

also, is it natural to shift hand positions a little, depending on the shot?

Personally, I prefer a loopy piston stroke, but for pendulum strokes I like a hanging forearm from the elbow as the hang will always be str8 down to the ground. As PJ mentioned, perpendicular to the cue really maximizes the pendulum's flat spot around impact, but perpendicular to the floor is certainly 'close enough' and offers enough of a flat spot while having the benefit of being looser through the arm and absolutely automatic to get the same every time (i.e. just hang).

As far as moving the hand around goes, the most commonly taught way to control power with a pendulum stroke is to vary its length. For a longer stroke, the bridge is longer and the grip hand moves farther back on the butt of the cue. For shorter strokes, the bridge is shorter and the grip hand scooches up on the butt. The key here is that the relationship between the bridge hand and the grip hand remains the same so your mechanics actually don't change much at all as you move from soft short strokes to long powerful ones.

Since Barry Stark was linked already, I'll use his lesson as an example of a way to train this.... He was training his student to reproduce the same relationship between her bridge hand and grip hand so after getting her in the right stance, he drew a line on her shaft where it rests on her bridge and put a piece of tape or elastic on the butt where her grip hand goes. Then as she altered the length for softer or harder shots, she'd keep the same spacing and make sure she was ahead/behind the shaft line and elastic by about the same amount. After a bit this really becomes second nature and is easily felt by players but when starting out, these little hand placement aids are nice to have as you develop your feel for the technique.

Darren Appleton offers a different way of keeping track of your spacing, which is using a landmark. For him, he always wants his hand hanging naturally below the elbow (perpendicular to the ground) and directly over his right foot (his landmark). Whether he grips farther back for a more powerful shot or not, his hand is hanging, forearm perpendicular to the ground, directly over his right foot. I've used a similar landmark in the past when I played a pendulum and kept my hand at my right hip as I lowered into my stance around that setpoint. Really from elbow to fingertips remained in place from standing to getting down. You can find what works for you in your setup, but some sort of landmark is generally easier and preferable to marking up your cue. To each his own.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The diagrams offered are excellent, but start with a level cue at address.

Yes, everybody's cue is inclined a little unless they're reaching so far their butt isn't over the rail - that doesn't change anything for this discussion.

The forward stroke should feel like there is downward pressure on the cue stick--as the cue approaches the cue ball

Why?

--and many fine players add a little something to a true pendulum movement near impact, to help the stick to be as level as possible through impact.

Put differently, a pendulum motion but one with a bit of straight motion at its bottom, more of a \_/ if you follow me, with the _ just to either side of impact with the cue ball.

A pendulum stroke does that automatically, without any change in the grip. That's why it's advised to have the arm perpendicular to the cue at address.

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Yes, everybody's cue is inclined a little unless they're reaching so far their butt isn't over the rail - that doesn't change anything for this discussion.


Why?


A pendulum stroke does that automatically, without any change in the grip. That's why it's advised to have the arm perpendicular to the cue at address.

View attachment 703821

pj
chgo

Ye I dunno about the downward pressure thing either. I use it when cueing a ball on the rail for extra tip stability and getting through the ball in case of some incidental cushion contact but other than that It's a take it or leave it feel with no 'should be' to it.

As far as the ulnar deviation goes as B.S. described it, he was referring to the change that goes on in the grip hand when using an elbow drop. For a regular stable elbow pendulum stroke, the natural pivoting of the cue in the grip hand is enough to produce that bottom of the arc flat spot as you mentioned.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I put a slight amount of downward pressure on the cue stick for touch and feel with the mass of the whole cue. In the diagrams with the arm perpendicular to the cue as is desirable, over the rail, the finish is toward the cloth with the tip, not reaching straight forward toward the o.b. (the upper swing of the pendulum). I don't want to jerk the cue upward the stroke at any time.

And I understand what you've both suggested, but most players don't use a pure pendulum (especially in pool, not snooker). I think one reason is the rigidity of motion/muscle clenching some players have in trying to make a perfect pendulum. Another is it's not a true pendulum with weight hung from above, but with most of the arm's weight forward of the lower arm. It's just a difficult move to do smoothly.

My final comment would be to observe pros who add a little something-something with the wrist or hand near impact, the goal being that extended flat spot (when not using a pure pendulum). As you noticed, BS showed one way an elbow drop can be compensated for--exactly one type of movement to compensate for a non-pendulum stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...it's not a true pendulum with weight hung from above, but with most of the arm's weight forward of the lower arm. It's just a difficult move to do smoothly.

Moving the elbow is more difficult to do smoothly and accurately.

BS showed one way an elbow drop can be compensated for--exactly one type of movement to compensate for a non-pendulum stroke.

A better way is to not drop the elbow.

By the way, CJ Wiley suggests that wrist movement too - he compares it to hitting a nail with a hammer and claims it adds speed (despite the fact it pulls the grip hand backwards in relation to the stroke - another reason to take pros' advice with a grain of salt).

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Moving the elbow is more difficult to do smoothly and accurately.


A better way is to not drop the elbow.

By the way, CJ Wiley suggests that wrist movement too - he compares it to hitting a nail with a hammer and claims it adds speed (despite the fact it pulls the grip hand backwards in relation to the stroke - another reason to take pros' advice with a grain of salt).

pj
chgo

Perhaps you find it more difficult. For me, it's vice versa. There are pros who drop, pros who don't.

CJ does pre-set radial deviation. I can see where there would be confusion, since he strongly teaches accelerating through the stroke with intention. I teach a long, full backstroke, for smooth, subconscious acceleration.

 

[FranCrimi]

With a pendulum stroke (fixed elbow) you can have a level-moving tip for a few inches before and after hitting the CB if your forearm is perpendicular to the cue at address (tip near CB).

If you want your cue to be level throughout the stroke then you need a "piston" stroke (elbow moving up and down), which is harder to control and unnecessary for an effective stroke.

pj
chgo

Let's say, for example, that 3 or 4 different types of strokes can get you to the exact same position at impact. So then, why do some players prefer one over the others? My guess is that it comes down to percentages and margins of error. For example: A pendulum-type stroke levels off pretty much right before impact. It's not unusual for a player to be slightly off-level at impact with that stroke. I actually think it's pretty common, but most shots have enough of a margin of error where they can handle a slightly off-level cue at impact (I mean more off-level than due to the rail being in the way).

Unlike other posters who say they can shoot any shot with a pendulum stroke without experimenting, I have taken the time to experiment. I have found that there are times that an elbow drop where you are leveling off the cue earlier in the stroke, eliminates the possibility of being off-level at impact on certain shots that have a smaller margin of error. A good example would be a shot along the rail, fairly straight-in, requiring both sidespin and speed for position play. The margin of error on that shot is very small.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Moving the elbow is more difficult to do smoothly and accurately.

Def opposite experience here. When the entire arm is engaged, even if it is mostly locked down mechanically to minimize elbow movement, I find it very easy to move fluidly with the cue. The result is a small elbow movement and a loopy appearance.

That said, I can anchor my elbow and play a pendulum stroke without much tension at all. It's about how the joints are stabilized. Most ppl do this wrong and get tight. Still prefer my loops tho so that's what I mostly play with.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ Wiley suggests that wrist movement too - he compares it to hitting a nail with a hammer and claims it adds speed (despite the fact it pulls the grip hand backwards in relation to the stroke - another reason to take pros' advice with a grain of salt).

CJ does pre-set radial deviation.

CJ Wiley: "The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball"

I can see where there would be confusion

Might wanna have that looked at.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Personally, I prefer a loopy piston stroke, but for pendulum strokes I like a hanging forearm from the elbow as the hang will always be str8 down to the ground. As PJ mentioned, perpendicular to the cue really maximizes the pendulum's flat spot around impact, but perpendicular to the floor is certainly 'close enough' and offers enough of a flat spot while having the benefit of being looser through the arm and absolutely automatic to get the same every time (i.e. just hang).

As far as moving the hand around goes, the most commonly taught way to control power with a pendulum stroke is to vary its length. For a longer stroke, the bridge is longer and the grip hand moves farther back on the butt of the cue. For shorter strokes, the bridge is shorter and the grip hand scooches up on the butt. The key here is that the relationship between the bridge hand and the grip hand remains the same so your mechanics actually don't change much at all as you move from soft short strokes to long powerful ones.

Since Barry Stark was linked already, I'll use his lesson as an example of a way to train this.... He was training his student to reproduce the same relationship between her bridge hand and grip hand so after getting her in the right stance, he drew a line on her shaft where it rests on her bridge and put a piece of tape or elastic on the butt where her grip hand goes. Then as she altered the length for softer or harder shots, she'd keep the same spacing and make sure she was ahead/behind the shaft line and elastic by about the same amount. After a bit this really becomes second nature and is easily felt by players but when starting out, these little hand placement aids are nice to have as you develop your feel for the technique.

Darren Appleton offers a different way of keeping track of your spacing, which is using a landmark. For him, he always wants his hand hanging naturally below the elbow (perpendicular to the ground) and directly over his right foot (his landmark). Whether he grips farther back for a more powerful shot or not, his hand is hanging, forearm perpendicular to the ground, directly over his right foot. I've used a similar landmark in the past when I played a pendulum and kept my hand at my right hip as I lowered into my stance around that setpoint. Really from elbow to fingertips remained in place from standing to getting down. You can find what works for you in your setup, but some sort of landmark is generally easier and preferable to marking up your cue. To each his own.

Very good.

I was taught to move both hands to choke up or go back on the cue depending.

And I'm not trying to be contrary, but one can shorten/lengthen the bridge hand's distance from the cue ball only, instead, and if the backstroke is taken all the way back to the fingers, there is near-automated speed control.

Admittedly, that's a more old school method and other players maintain the same bridge length between shots, to maintain the same pivot point.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

CJ Wiley: "The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball"


Might wanna have that looked at.

pj
chgo

Pardon me, I was talking about his pre-set wrist position at address. You can see the wrinkles under the base of his thumb. He feels it's a mechanical advantage, most players have a different wrist set.

"Might wanna have that looked at."

That was pretty funny! Good one.

 

[WobblyStroke]

CJ Wiley: "The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball."

the two aren;t necessarily mutually exclusive. Yes what makes most sense is to cock the wrist (radial deviation) which sends the hand towards target to accelerate the cue.
However, for the 'back fingers are the engine' guys... if the back fingers drive the cue forward as the hand closes this also causes an acceleration but the appearance in the wrist will be a cocking towards the pinky (ulnar deviation). You can play around with this yourself and feel the acceleration happens but the wrist moves in this counter intuitive manner.

Both work, but the wrist is only driving one of em. Honestly, I'm not really sure what CJ is describing by cocking-down. But either way, a wrist move in either direction can theoretically be accompanied by an acceleration in the cue. It just happens differently.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Very good.

I was taught to move both hands to choke up or go back on the cue depending.

And I'm not trying to be contrary, but one can shorten/lengthen the bridge hand's distance from the cue ball only, instead, and if the backstroke is taken all the way back to the fingers, there is near-automated speed control.

Admittedly, that's a more old school method and other players maintain the same bridge length between shots, to maintain the same pivot point.

Ye, as I mentioned, that is most commonly taught. There are obv many other approaches to this. Some don't vary the bridge, some don't vary the backhand. Some are not very concerned with reproducing their spacing and mechanics and have different moves for different speed shots. I like the simplicity of that common teaching of keeping spacing tho. Works fine for a lot of folks.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... if the back fingers drive the cue forward as the hand closes this also causes an acceleration but the appearance in the wrist will be a cocking towards the pinky (ulnar deviation).

Have you watched pros who open and then close their fingers to accelerate? Busty's a good example - the hand clearly moves forward with the fingers at contact. If not, then the hand movement would be counteracting the finger movement.

francisco bustamante stroke - Google Search

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Have you watched pros who open and then close their fingers to accelerate? Busty's a good example - the hand clearly moves forward with the fingers at contact. If not, then the hand movement would be counteracting the finger movement.

francisco bustamante stroke - Google Search

pj
chgo

it's just a visual thing as the wrist keeps everything on plane. I think Billy Incardona was a hand closes to power the stroke guy. Could have been another us open commentator from back in the day who spoke on it.

Theres also a nice thread on grips here on AZ where guys were sharing different grip ideas and i forget the great player who was quoted but his line was "the index finger and thumb may be the steering wheel for the stroke, but the back 3 fingers are the engine".

It's not the standard approach but yes it has been employed by some pros.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Ahh I misunderstood what u were sayin... not questioning if it is used just how it looks....

ofc Busty's way is more standard but while his hand opens and closes on the cue that is not the same as actually powering the stroke with the fingers. Hes very loose and his hand is mostly along for the ride. Even if he were consciously using the fingers it van obv look like that.

what im saying is that it can also look like there is ulnar deviayion (pinky side cock). I did it before my first response so it van look that way. start with a fist grip. allow it to open and then close the hand feeling like the vue is being quickly brought up to the fleshy part of the hand esp on punky side. you get that ulnar deviation look with a clear acceleraton on the cue.

like i said, it is counterintuitive and def not the only way it can look but it def can look this way.

 

[WobblyStroke]

so i just played around with it for a cpl min and i think i found the difference for the two looks....
Using the same hand closing technique, if i addressed short of 90 degrees, where one would be trying to be perlendicular to the cue as u like, the hand closes and wrist appears cocked towards thumb.
when i address past 90 degrees, the same move causes the look of a co king to the pinky side.

in both cases, the wrist isnt really contributing force to the stroke but merely accommodating the cue's movement on the intended swing plane

That said, the short of 90 or hang at address does allow the wrist to be an active contributor along with the fingers if the player so chooses. with impact past 90 that isnt an option as it would fight what the fingers are doing as u mentioned.

lotta ways to deliver a cue. for the record, i hate both of these lol. but can see the simplicity appealing to some.

 

[FranCrimi]

Have you watched pros who open and then close their fingers to accelerate? Busty's a good example - the hand clearly moves forward with the fingers at contact. If not, then the hand movement would be counteracting the finger movement.

francisco bustamante stroke - Google Search

pj
chgo

Yeah, but most of them don't do that, Pat. It's really not necessary to use your hand to manipulate the cue in MOST situations. Arm movement is plenty enough for whatever speed you need.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yeah, but most of them don't do that, Pat. It's really not necessary to use your hand to manipulate the cue in MOST situations. Arm movement is plenty enough for whatever speed you need.

I agree it's not necessary - I was just clarifying how it's done (fingers and hand move in same direction). I don't know of anybody who moves them in opposite directions.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I agree it's not necessary - I was just clarifying how it's done (fingers and hand move in same direction). I don't know of anybody who moves them in opposite directions.

pj
chgo

I don't know if this qualifies, but Ewa used to have a quirky stroke for awhile early in her career. I think it may have started when she first started playing 9 ball. She would flick her wrist back and then flick it forward on every shot. I couldn't understand the move at all, and eventually she stopped doing it. I think it's just a quirk the some players develop which doesn't improve anything.