Best Machine Ever. :-)

[John Barton]

John, I said all I need to, I'm through with all the banter, the facts are the facts John and you can't hide from yourself.

Of course you are through Craig. Glad you got everything you wanted to say off your chest.

So to recap, you didn't answer the questions as to what you would do.

You did however make some statements attacking me personally and introducing issues that have nothing to do with the topic.

And again you tried to make us believe that you have some insight into how the industry works but in fact again revealed that you truly know nothing of the industry.

You labeled me a sellout yet you sell and profit off of import cues.

So it's clear to me that you have nothing of value to add to the topic.

I, on the other hand, have learned a lot this week from this thread, from the "Do you love cue making?" thread and from my experience at the ICCS among some of the very best cue makers in the world.

As I said in the other thread I do understand the sensitivity over imported mass production cues and why some cue makers are opposed to them. That epiphany was confirmed in individual conversation.

However most of the cue makers I talked to about are not against low priced imports. They are against blatant design theft but that's another issue.

Anyway, my own love of the craft was rekindled and several collectors have given me the task of interepreting their cues, several cue makers would like to have us make cases for their cues to be delivered in, and I was fortunate to sit beside one of the most famous collectors in the world and get a lot of history of cases, cues and players.

I count myself as extremely fortunate that I have been able to experience the billiard industry intimately for the past 20 years. From the pinnacle of cue making to seeing cues made on a rusty lathe under a lean-to outside I have enjoyed every minute of it and look forward to the next 20 years.

So you're right Craig, I can't and don't want to escape who I am. As Efren would say, I got lucky.

Sincerely,

John Barton, Case Maker.

 

[John Barton]

]

Knowledge is power, but if you have a group of people who just want to make cues for the sake of making great cues, that is one thing. If you have a group of people who want to make cues just to make money, well, that's not new to us either. The scary thing is, who is going to take that knowledge and turn it in to something that spins out of control? I would personally like to see the art of cue making around for a long time, but I believe some fear that we might see Southwest or Balabushka quality cues being sold for $200.

And if that happens then it is how the market works. In a competitive market place the quality generally goes up and the price comes down as more people enter the market and figure out ways to do it better and cheaper. Some people do it worse and cheaper, and some specialize in doing it much much better and charge accordingly.

I personally find nothing wrong with having Balabuska quality cues for $200. That can only serve to increase the number of players who can appreciate playing pool without any care about their equipment.

Playability and quality are two characteristics however that are nearly impossible to define as we have seen.

Marcus Dienst, from Arthur Q, brought up the point that players all have different expectations about what a cue should feel like and that it's his experience that when some good players say that a cue is good then lesser players follow that lead and order cues based on the idea that if it's good enough for a better player then it must be good. Then when they get it they may not like the hit for themselves personally. But he said that having an idea that a cue is "good" is first in a player's mind before they order. Then they look at their wallet, he said, and buy the most cue that they can afford.

This of course has nothing to do with the original question but it does speak to your point.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

You do know that Bruce Lee was an American who was raised in Hong Kong right? The Chinese could not ban him from teaching martial arts to westerners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

Please cite your source.

I don't get my facts from wikipedia, sir, especially when it comes to martial arts. I have much more accurate resources. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. It is not necessarily true.

You are right, the Chinese could not ban JunFanLee from teaching whomever he pleased not because of his origin of birth, but for a different reason. What is your point?

 

[SK Custom Cues]

Exactly.

And this is the key. As a cue maker do you seek knowledge from others? Do you give knowledge to others? Do you buy or sell knowledge?

If you aren't 100% self-reliant then you can hardly look down on someone else who isn't either, at least not with much credibility.

Thomas Wayne was making that statement in defense of CNC as a tool because Chris Nitti, who uses a pantograph, made a statement that he doesn't see the "art" in having a CNC mill do the pockets and parts as opposed to a pantograph guided mill do the same parts and pockets.

Thomas' point was that people who aren't good cue makers will think that they could just "be better" if they had that new tool. His point was that these guys haven't mastered the tools that they already have.

Then from there the discussion went into whether Balabushka was a good cue maker or not because he didn't use his own point blanks........which makes my point that a good cue maker seeks to acquire that which makes his product better, in this case Spain and Szamboti blanks are what George chose to put in his cues.

I constantly seek to further my knowledge. I also buy and sell knowledge everyday. It's my what I do for a living. I never said I was 100% self reliant and never said I looked down on people. What is the point in bringing that up? I only want to be clear with you, since it appears that is your goal via these discussions.

I am simply using part of what Thomas Wayne said to point out how impressed I was with his words and point of view. I am simply admiring his point of view, because we could all use more of what he said. As far as the other things that were said, well, I don't have quite the capacity to recall what was said quite like you did......... I am not as smart as you.

and you said John is not smart. Ha!

 

[SK Custom Cues]

And if that happens then it is how the market works. In a competitive market place the quality generally goes up and the price comes down as more people enter the market and figure out ways to do it better and cheaper. Some people do it worse and cheaper, and some specialize in doing it much much better and charge accordingly.

I personally find nothing wrong with having Balabuska quality cues for $200. That can only serve to increase the number of players who can appreciate playing pool without any care about their equipment.

Playability and quality are two characteristics however that are nearly impossible to define as we have seen.

Marcus Dienst, from Arthur Q, brought up the point that players all have different expectations about what a cue should feel like and that it's his experience that when some good players say that a cue is good then lesser players follow that lead and order cues based on the idea that if it's good enough for a better player then it must be good. Then when they get it they may not like the hit for themselves personally. But he said that having an idea that a cue is "good" is first in a player's mind before they order. Then they look at their wallet, he said, and buy the most cue that they can afford.

This of course has nothing to do with the original question but it does speak to your point.

Thank you for elaborating on my point. I personally find it a shame to bring the price of a real Balabushka down to $200. What DP did is a shame and look at his reputation today. His $2K cues aren't worth a flip. They might still be good quality, but it has been devalued and that is what I'm totally opposed of. It's kind of like the American Dollar. It's worth maybe 2 cents. What does the Fed do? They keep printing more and more money, and it might as well be counterfeit.

As far as Marcus' comments, I remember that too. I agree with him totally, and he brought up some very good points. He, in my book is right. Lesser players will always take the advice of a house pro, or a better player, and they say it's good, then in their mind, they make it so. In my pool hall, everyone likes Schons. It's Schon this, and Schon that. The old timers, some of the young whippersnappers, a good number of them have Schons. To me, it is an OK cue with a generic hit, but because of the reputation and popularity, these guys think it is the holy grail. I laugh at these guys because they really don't know shit about sticks regardless whether they can play or not. All they know is that Schons are consistent, and have a stiff hit with that 'pingy' noise and that just gives em a huge boner.

As far as the hypothetical $200 Balabushka market, I dread that day to come. I for one, am a traditionalist with a love for real quality whether it be old furniture, cues, martial arts, or simply food. To me, you can't get real five star cuisine without paying for it. It doesn't matter how many new and talented 'top chefs' flood the industry. I personally would love for the market to keep their classes of cues as they are ranging from the SP's up to the Szams and Ginas. I think the day that TS cues become equal to that of a Lucasi will be a sad day. I personally love the fact that a person can stamp their name on a cue with their blood, sweat and true talent. What bothers me is that the amount of shallow people will continue to increase and those who know true quality will be few. But, I guess that's the market for ya.

 

[John Barton]

I don't get my facts from wikipedia, sir, especially when it comes to martial arts. I have much more accurate resources. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. It is not necessarily true.

You are right, the Chinese could not ban JunFanLee from teaching whomever he pleased not because of his origin of birth, but for a different reason. What is your point?

I didn't have a point other than I was under the assumption that you were saying that "the Chinese" as in the Chinese government banned it. My bad. Of course if the Chinese "elders" of Kung Fu in China pronounced some ban then I have no knowledge of that, because in this instance I do get my information from Wikipedia.

However wouldn't it be the same if you were in a cue guild and the guild forbade the members from sharing their knowledge with those outside the guild? In this case I can see a valid situation where one should NOT share or sell knowledge. The knowledge does not belong to any one individual but instead to the group collectively.

So was Bruce Lee a sell out? Or did he advance the art beyond what he was taught and thereby earn the right to sell his knowledge to the world?

 

[John Barton]

Thank you for elaborating on my point. I personally find it a shame to bring the price of a real Balabushka down to $200. What DP did is a shame and look at his reputation today. His $2K cues aren't worth a flip. They might still be good quality, but it has been devalued and that is what I'm totally opposed of. It's kind of like the American Dollar. It's worth maybe 2 cents. What does the Fed do? They keep printing more and more money, and it might as well be counterfeit.

As far as Marcus' comments, I remember that too. I agree with him totally, and he brought up some very good points. He, in my book is right. Lesser players will always take the advice of a house pro, or a better player, and they say it's good, then in their mind, they make it so. In my pool hall, everyone likes Schons. It's Schon this, and Schon that. The old timers, some of the young whippersnappers, a good number of them have Schons. To me, it is an OK cue with a generic hit, but because of the reputation and popularity, these guys think it is the holy grail. I laugh at these guys because they really don't know shit about sticks regardless whether they can play or not. All they know is that Schons are consistent, and have a stiff hit with that 'pingy' noise and that just gives em a huge boner.

As far as the hypothetical $200 Balabushka market, I dread that day to come. I for one, am a traditionalist with a love for real quality whether it be old furniture, cues, martial arts, or simply food. To me, you can't get real five star cuisine without paying for it. It doesn't matter how many new and talented 'top chefs' flood the industry. I personally would love for the market to keep their classes of cues as they are ranging from the SP's up to the Szams and Ginas. I think the day that TS cues become equal to that of a Lucasi will be a sad day. I personally love the fact that a person can stamp their name on a cue with their blood, sweat and true talent. What bothers me is that the amount of shallow people will continue to increase and those who know true quality will be few. But, I guess that's the market for ya.

On Schon:

When I was 19 years old, around 1988ish playing in the poolrooms of South Florida I had a McDermott D-1. At some point I met a few players from up north who had Schon cues. I had never heard of Schon, hell I had never heard of much beyond Dufferin, McDermott and Meucci at that point. I fell in love with the Schon and resolved to get one someday. That someday came two years later when I was in the Air Force and I could afford one. I bought my first Schon from Danny Barrouty through mail order. Schon had sent me a black and white catalog of their cue models.

Other than the fact that I had seen exactly two Schon cues prior to buying mine, and the fact that I had hit with one of them for a few minutes, I didn't know much about them.

The point being that you don't have to know much about something to know if you like it or not. You might get burned. You might also get the best value in the world. If you feel uneasy about then you should research it. When I got my Schon there was no internet - at least none that I knew of - to ask other people's opinions. There were no other players around me who had some for a longer period to ask how they held up.

I paid $1400 for it and never regretted that purchase at all. I would have been happier to have been able to get that quality for less (actually I could have if I had chosen a different model) because I did need to get my car fixed as well at the same time.

Luckily for me though I took the bus to the local pool room when I got the cue and made enough gambling to replace the engine in my car.

I'd be thrilled as punch if all 21 year olds could have the same experience I had with my first Schon.

If DP starts people on the path of acquiring custom cues with his low priced semi-customs then that's a good thing. He is providing a low cost entry into a world of endless design and variation.

I don't think that George Balabushka would mind if there were $200 cues today with his level of quality. In the same time that he was getting $150 for his cues Ernie Gutierezz was getting $400 for his similar designs.

I think Balabushka would however be unhappy with cues that bear his name and use the tagline, "cues that George would have made had he lived" or something like that when they aren't made the same way he did them. Again though another topic.

I think that Balabuska might even be upset that his cues are traded at such high prices and that most of them will never get played with again.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

I didn't have a point other than I was under the assumption that you were saying that "the Chinese" as in the Chinese government banned it. My bad. Of course if the Chinese "elders" of Kung Fu in China pronounced some ban then I have no knowledge of that, because in this instance I do get my information from Wikipedia.

However wouldn't it be the same if you were in a cue guild and the guild forbade the members from sharing their knowledge with those outside the guild? In this case I can see a valid situation where one should NOT share or sell knowledge. The knowledge does not belong to any one individual but instead to the group collectively.

So was Bruce Lee a sell out? Or did he advance the art beyond what he was taught and thereby earn the right to sell his knowledge to the world?

I believe Bruce Lee originally did what he had to do to prove himself to the world. Ultimately, what Bruce Lee wanted was to show the entire world the true beauty of Asian Culture and the real power of Authentic, Traditional Martial Art. He succeeded in doing that.

What he failed in doing was keeping a lid on his arrogance and cocky behavior strictly to benefit his ego and popularity to the world. Simply put, he did eventually sell out to fame and power by getting caught up in the movie industry catering to the 'wazza! lovers' and twirling his nunchuks around like some expert even though he wasn't. Bruce Lee's real expertise was in showmanship and the public display of it. He was very talented in everything he did, but true master? I don't think so. A true master knows himself as well as his opponent, and that was the cause of his eventual downfall...... and his son's downfall. Bruce may have earned the right to do whatever he pleased with his knowledge, but we must address the facts and recognize that he made the worst kind of mistakes, by first, going against his ancestors, and second, by extinguishing his family's lineage. He did ultimately pay with family's lives for what he did.

We must all ask ourselves before we start down a path, what is the truth we seek? What are we doing to stay on that course? What path am I on now? Where will that ultimately lead?

Traditionally, martial arts was the most valuable thing a person could possess. People have invaded lands for it, and other people have dominated other countries with it. Others have successfully defended empires with it for over a thousand years. To have supernatural ability and to wield military prowess on the battlefield in honor of your country was the most noble thing a person could do. The path of the warrior meant so much to the ancestors. To bring honor to your people no matter what the cost was absolutely the most important thing. The worst thing a person could do was to betray his people for money, power, or other forms of weakness. This is a quality that still exists in the hearts and minds of many elder asian people, because they remember how it was. History dictates what will happen because humans have proven it with their actions.

People will continue to sin and corrupt until one day, we will pay the price.

 

[John Barton]

I believe Bruce Lee originally did what he had to do to prove himself to the world. Ultimately, what Bruce Lee wanted was to show the entire world the true beauty of Asian Culture and the real power of Authentic, Traditional Martial Art. He succeeded in doing that.

What he failed in doing was keeping a lid on his arrogance and cocky behavior strictly to benefit his ego and popularity to the world. Simply put, he did eventually sell out to fame and power by getting caught up in the movie industry catering to the 'wazza! lovers' and twirling his nunchuks around like some expert even though he wasn't. Bruce Lee's real expertise was in showmanship and the public display of it. He was very talented in everything he did, but true master? I don't think so. A true master knows himself as well as his opponent, and that was the cause of his eventual downfall...... and his son's downfall. Bruce may have earned the right to do whatever he pleased with his knowledge, but we must address the facts and recognize that he made the worst kind of mistakes, by first, going against his ancestors, and second, by extinguishing his family's lineage. He did ultimately pay with family's lives for what he did.

We must all ask ourselves before we start down a path, what is the truth we seek? What are we doing to stay on that course? What path am I on now? Where will that ultimately lead?

Traditionally, martial arts was the most valuable thing a person could possess. People have invaded lands for it, and other people have dominated other countries with it. Others have successfully defended empires with it for over a thousand years. To have supernatural ability and to wield military prowess on the battlefield in honor of your country was the most noble thing a person could do. The path of the warrior meant so much to the ancestors. To bring honor to your people no matter what the cost was absolutely the most important thing. The worst thing a person could do was to betray his people for money, power, or other forms of weakness. This is a quality that still exists in the hearts and minds of many elder asian people, because they remember how it was. History dictates what will happen because humans have proven it with their actions.

People will continue to sin and corrupt until one day, we will pay the price.

Well now it's way to deep for me.

I invented my own way of doing cases so I think I can share that with whomever I want to without raising the ire of my ancestors.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

Well now it's way to deep for me.

I invented my own way of doing cases so I think I can share that with whomever I want to without raising the ire of my ancestors.

Good for you. Please do that. Hopefully, we arrived at a conclusion. End of thread?