best player ever?

[fast larry]

Willie's ghost is gonna go after yo azz Larry.
Willie was more famous than Fatty.
Fatty was more infamous.
If Efren can't crack your top 10, Fatty has no place there either.

Let Willie bring in on, I never really liked that little prick any way. I never knew anybody who did.

When I finally get the call and the angles come for me when I get to heaven there will be this hugh billiard parlor in the sky. They will let me in, I've done a couple of things to gain me admission.

Up in the front is Hoppe, The Shaefers, Ives, Daly and Cochran playing billiards.

Over in the corner is Lindgrum and Joe Davis having a go on the 6x12. John Roberts is playing the winner.

In the next corner is Mosconi, Caras, Crane, Taberski, Greenleaf and Eufemia, Cranfield all playing 14.1 in their tux's for the tin cup of the day. Michael is now on a 300 ball run againt the Babe.

Not allowed in da joint and in the back smoke filled room are the pool hustlers. They don't spit at the spitton, they spit a foot above it, splat and the juice runs down the wall into the waiting hole. Cigar smoke is like a thick cloud on the ceiling. There is a lot of chatter, every one is matching up or trying to make a game and trap a mark.
Fatty and Martin Kiaman have matched up to see who plays the best one handed game. They are playing Alabama 8 ball jacked up one handed. Martin has on his only T shirt with steak juice droppings staining the front of it. Adrew St Jean plays the winner of that match.
Charlie Seaback has Bennie Allen stuck for a thou and Bennie just came back at him double or nothing. The two new kids, Larry Liscotti and Conrbread are playing some one hole for 5K a pop.

Shorty and Luther are playing one hole and Luther has Boston on the ropes.

There is a 9 ball ring game going on and the top 5 greatest pool hustlers of all time are playing for 25 grand winner take all.

Fast Eddy Parker is doing a trick shot show.

Now let me think, where am I going to go and hang out at in the pool hall in heaven, with the penguins or with the real pool players. Where do you think I will go to?

 

[fast larry]

Fastlarry, Actually I agree with most of your list, and your rationale. When I picked Efren, Mosconi & Greenleaf, I was indeed thinking 'pool', not broader cue games. No argument from me on having Hoppe at the top, either.

That said, I'm not in agreement with your opinion on Efren. As I think about it, I'm wondering if your apparent lack of respect for Efren is an indirect reflection of what seems to be your lack of respect for the game of One Pocket in general. In your list of top 10, you ask us to broaden our horizons in your selection of players in a wide variety of cue games -- some of which are not exactly current popular cue sports -- yet when you speak about One Pocket, you seem to go into a narrow view yourself. --> Please note I have not read all of you posts, nor have I ever met you in person, so I could be wrong about your genuine One Pocket opinions, but it seems to me that I have here and there read in your posts a pattern of disparaging comments about One Pocket. Certainly you are entitled to your opinions, that I am not questioning in the slightest. I'm just wondering if that has influenced your lack of respect for Efren -- since I think it is fair to say that he is the acknowledged best One pocket player in the world at the moment.

Regarding Fatty -- I too am an admirer, but since the question was framed 'best player', certainly Fatty doesn't make that list. Most entertaining player, yes; best known player, yes; best hustler, maybe yes -- but as you said yourself, not near the top ten 'best player' -- so why even argue that one?

Cheers

So OK, I won't argue the fatty thing, perhaps I am wrong on this, perhaps. One of the things I hate on this board is when you all say I say things I never do or put words into my mouth. This is now going on. I defy you to ever find anything I have ever written about Efren any where at any time that was dis respect. Just because I do not feel he makes the all time top 10 list means no dis respect towards him. I said I would put him in my top 20 list. If I did a pool list, he would hit that top 10 in the back half of it somewhere. Read what I said, I think he's the best player now in pool today. Is that not respect. From a historians persective I feel he is not on my all time cueist top 10 . Sir, the burden of proof here is for you to prove his case to me, not my 10 against him. I have listed mine and what they did.

The first question you must answer is this, how many world championships in 9 ball has he won, when and where were they and who did he beat. Get some facts and then return to me with your discussion please. Let's keep this civil please. When you get that number then begin to ask this, how does that compare to Earl's 5 worlds, that is how you must approach this, with facts and not blind emotion or hero worship.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Now let me think, where am I going to go and hang out at in the pool hall in heaven, with the penguins or with the real pool players. Where do you think I will go to?

At the barbox?
I don't know about you but, I'd watch the great straight-poolers and admire them b/c they played the game as it was meant to be played by the greats.
I'd go where Efren and Buddy are playing some 9-ball or one-hole. Two smooth, oh soooooo smoooooth, strokers. I'd go where Cowboy Moore is b/c I never saw that slip-stroke. I'd go see Irving Crane if he's playing some straight-pool. Maybe Efren and De Oro can play some Balkline.
No, I won't go where they spit and where it's smoke filled.
Maybe, Larry, that's pool is where it is today? Some people think pool is still played in this kind of environs?
As IPocket reiterated, you said Fatty wasn't great.

 

[Joseph Cues]

The first question you must answer is this, how many world championships in 9 ball has he won, when and where were they and who did he beat. Get some facts and then return to me with your discussion please. Let's keep this civil please. When you get that number then begin to ask this, how does that compare to Earl's 5 worlds, that is how you must approach this, with facts and not blind emotion or hero worship.

Efren won once.
So who beat Strickland on a race to 120 for $100K?
Earl was ahead 104-87 one time.
How many overall DCC titles does Earl have?
3 World 8-ball titles, 3 finals appearances in a row.
4 US Open final appearances in a row.

 

[fast larry]

Efren won once.
So who beat Strickland on a race to 120 for $100K?
Earl was ahead 104-87 one time.
How many overall DCC titles does Earl have?
3 World 8-ball titles, 3 finals appearances in a row.
4 US Open final appearances in a row.

That is my point, you are not great if you dont win the big ones, the world championships. History does not remember who came in 2nd place the most. Efrens record on this is ho hum at best. Now examine who has the best world championship run, Earl or Johnny now that we agree Efren is out of this. This is the procedure you go through on these, an examination. Now we are getting some place.

 

[Joseph Cues]

That is my point, you are not great if you dont win the big ones, the world championships. History does not remember who came in 2nd place the most. Efrens record on this is ho hum at best. Now examine who has the best world championship run, Earl or Johnny now that we agree Efren is out of this. This is the procedure you go through on these, an examination. Now we are getting some place.

How many World 9-ball did Jean Balukas win?
Buddy Hall?
9-ball is for bangers anyway, like someone said.
History remembers Efren winning the largest single event purse ever ( 165K) and the match of the century.

 

[fast larry]

At the barbox?
I don't know about you but, I'd watch the great straight-poolers and admire them b/c they played the game as it was meant to be played by the greats.
I'd go where Efren and Buddy are playing some 9-ball or one-hole. Two smooth, oh soooooo smoooooth, strokers. I'd go where Cowboy Moore is b/c I never saw that slip-stroke. I'd go see Irving Crane if he's playing some straight-pool. Maybe Efren and De Oro can play some Balkline.
No, I won't go where they spit and where it's smoke filled.
Maybe, Larry, that's pool is where it is today? Some people think pool is still played in this kind of environs?
As IPocket reiterated, you said Fatty wasn't great.

Afred De Oro played pool, rotation. He was a pool champion. But back them, most of the greats played both games, pool and billiards both really well.

Yes I always said Fatty was a good player and a great gambler. I have always said he had no chance against Willie. He only beat him once on TV in a short race game of 7 ball and I highly suspect the two got together and Willie dumped and dogged game ball and they cut up the people gambling on the game in the casino in Vegas at the time. There was no way Fatty could ever beat Willie in a thousand years. Willie could beat him with one hand tied behind his back, that is the real truth. It was no contest. The only way Fatty could beat willie was to mickey him and that went on a lot back then. I've had it done to me just once then my drink never left my hand or sight after that.

 

[fast larry]

How many World 9-ball did Jean Balukas win?
Buddy Hall?
9-ball is for bangers anyway, like someone said.
History remembers Efren winning the largest single event purse ever ( 165K) and the match of the century.

FL RESPONDS:

One match means nothing, it is who dominates and wins the most world titles during a decade is who then is great. The others are then, not as great. Any body in the joint can get hot for 3 days and win a tourney; you see it happen all of the time. Earl has 5 world titles, Efren has one, and Earl wins, sorry Efren. I also think you guys should support your fellow Americans more, trust me, the Philippines don't cheer or root for a single one of us. Earl is right on a lot of these issues. He just displays his point poorly.

 

[1pocket]

FL RESPONDS;
Oh Yeah, In Johnston city the Efren of his day was Ritchie Florence, there was no way Fatty could take him but when the smoke cleared Richey was out the door and Fatty had his 25K in his sock.

...You are stuck with the pool mentality sir, think beyond pool. This is not a pool list, it is a best player list, a cueist list, and there is a world beyond 9 ball or 1 hole guys. Tell me how many world titles Efrens won, end of debate that is why he is not on my top 10.

fastlarry, would you not agree that the Derby City Classic is the Johnson City of today? I mean no disrespect to Richie Florence, but how many all-around titles did Richie win? Efren has entered two DCC, and been crowned 'master of the table' twice.

You ask how many 'world's' titles has Efren won? 'World' gets thrown around an awful lot by promoters, as it has been for years, so I don't think I would put too much stock in that term per se. For example, would you not agree that the US Open has had as high a stature as many 'world' tournaments over the years? I do know the DCC, though not a 'world' tournament, certainly features many international players, in contrast to many 'world' tournaments that may well have had zero non US players. Certainly hasn't Efren's winning career over the last 15 years surpassed Richie Florence's tournament achievements? And of course, before Efren even came to the US he was probably the 'world's' best Rotation player.

Efren has certainly won many tournaments all over the world -- even if they didn't have 'world' in the titles -- that should count for something. Tell me about Richie's great international career, please, if you want to consider equating Richie with Efren not a slight...

 

[1pocket]

FL RESPONDS:

Earl is right on a lot of these issues. He just displays his point poorly.

kinda like you fastlarry

 

[Joseph Cues]

FL RESPONDS:

One match means nothing, it is who dominates and wins the most world titles during a decade is who then is great. The others are then, not as great. Any body in the joint can get hot for 3 days and win a tourney; you see it happen all of the time. Earl has 5 world titles, Efren has one, and Earl wins, sorry Efren. I also think you guys should support your fellow Americans more, trust me, the Philippines don't cheer or root for a single one of us. Earl is right on a lot of these issues. He just displays his point poorly.

And which player has the most titles since 1994?

 

[fast larry]

How many World 9-ball did Jean Balukas win?
Buddy Hall?
9-ball is for bangers anyway, like someone said.
History remembers Efren winning the largest single event purse ever ( 165K) and the match of the century.

The only way you really become truly great is to get out from the back room, go penguin and play for the tin cups. You have to play and defeat the best all over the world like Cuelemans did, take it to them, come in after them.
Then they fear you like you all fear the Phillipinos now coming in. Winning one big pot of money means nothing in my book. A title is in the books forever, the big cash score is quickly forgotten.

Some guys don't want the fame, they are happen to remain unkown and pluck off their 200K a year from the pigeons. it's two lives, two paths to take. Early in life I was running with Rudy and Martin, now I am a true penguin, playing in a tux for tin cups and fame. I've lived both lives, understand both.

 

[Joseph Cues]

The only way you really become truly great is to get out from the back room, go penguin and play for the tin cups. You have to play and defeat the best all over the world like Cuelemans did, take it to them, come in after them.
Then they fear you like you all fear the Phillipinos now coming in. Winning one big pot of money means nothing in my book. A title is in the books forever, the big cash score is quickly forgetten.

Some guys don't want the fame, they are happen to remain unkown and pluck off their 200K a year from the pigeons. it's two lives, two paths to take.

Larry, can you name one player who has won more money games than Efren in recent memory?
DCC in essence is a money game/games. You can rebuy your way in.
Who won thousands there playing one-hole spotting the great one-holers now?
Who beat Grady at Hard Times for big cash? It was taped btw.
Who beat Bugs and Slim? Do you know of any world champ playing Efren straight-up some 9-ball for big cash outside of Buddy?
Everybody knew Efren had a huge backer in the Philippines and one here. If anybody wanted to play major, major money, they just needed to call.
Efren did not need to show up late and wait til the other guys are drunk either. He was the one who showed up half-asleep.

 

[fast larry]

And which player has the most titles since 1994?

Joe, you are beginning to mess with my wa and patience, I am slowing losing it here. The vein in the side of my neck is getting large and throbing. I wish I could get the big thing to do that now. That is what you boys do with Earl, mess with him long enough and he goes off the deep end and slobber begins to drool down his cheek. You all think it's funny, it's not, he's a great champion and you all should show him much greater respect and honor. He loves his country and flag, he questions if you do?

1994 Joe has nothing to do with it, it is who dominates over a decade, 10 year minimum period of time, that is how golf rates and ranks their greats, pool should do the same. A one year flash in the pan is just that. A guy named Kim had one hot year, where is he now? The best that guy ever did was be 2nd at the end of the year. He won a few big ones, so what when you look at it over a perspective of a century as I do. Joe, you are blinded by the tree in front of you, you cannot see the entire forest around you. You are in an argument you cannot win, Efren has one world, he choked all of his chances to be great, that is the sorry sad truth to this, so you made me say it. You knew if you bugged me long enough I would. Oh Lord, now watch the bozo's decend upon me now and I was doing so good here. All good things have to end some how. Vote for "Earl" Earl for president, would that not be a hoot.

 

[fast larry]

Larry, can you name one player who has won more money games than Efren in recent memory?
DCC in essence is a money game/games. You can rebuy your way in.
Who won thousands there playing one-hole spotting the great one-holers now?
Who beat Grady at Hard Times for big cash? It was taped btw.
Who beat Bugs and Slim? Do you know of any world champ playing Efren straight-up some 9-ball for big cash outside of Buddy?
Everybody knew Efren had a huge backer in the Philippines and one here. If anybody wanted to play major, major money, they just needed to call.
Efren did not need to show up late and wait til the other guys are drunk either. He was the one who showed up half-asleep.

Oh sure, I have the answer to that one, that is a lay down, come on boys, ask me something hard. Here is his name. Rudolph Walderone, he began gambling at 2, played till he was 82, maybe if Efren lives for another 35 years he might get close to him. On this, Fatty gives Efren the 6 and the snap. Fatty did not need no backers, he played on his own money. Maybe we need to start a new thread and discussion. I would like to see this expanded. Who were the top 10 greatest gamblers of all time, the 20th century, 1900 to 2000. Let's do that, somebody kick it off. This thread is going into too many directions.

 

[fast larry]

kinda like you fastlarry

Very very true, now you know why we like each other, we are too much alike. I see me in him and when I see how you guys torture him it brings me great pain. We both come from the same background, were produced out of the same world. We both are now, what we are. I sure hope Earl does not read this because I am sure he will find it very insulting I am anything like him. I have been a long time supporter of Earl and Efren, read my posts. I like an admire both of these great players. If they match up, then I cheer for Earl, I am in the front row saying out loud, USA, USA, USA.....

 

[King Cueball]

Larry are you on crack? You said Efren is not great? Earl in his own words said "Ive played them all and Efren is the best!"

 

[fast larry]

fastlarry, would you not agree that the Derby City Classic is the Johnson City of today? I mean no disrespect to Richie Florence.

many all-around titles did Richie win? Efren has entered two DCC, and been crowned 'master of the table' twice.

You ask how many 'world's' titles has Efren won? 'World' gets thrown around an awful lot by promoters, as it has been for years, so I don't think I would put too much stock in that term per se. For example, would you not agree that the US Open has had as high a stature as many 'world' tournaments over the years? I do know the DCC, though not a 'world' tournament, certainly features many international players, in contrast to many 'world' tournaments that may well have had zero non US players. Certainly hasn't Efren's winning career over the last 15 years surpassed Richie Florence's tournament achievements? And of course, before Efren even came to the US he was probably the 'world's' best Rotation player.

Efren has certainly won many tournaments all over the world -- even if they didn't have 'world' in the titles -- that should count for something. Tell me about Richie's great international career, please, if you want to consider equating Richie with Efren not a slight...

FL RESPONDS;
No sir, I am sorry, your lame excuse to excuse him from choking the big one for a decade or more won’t fly with me. The mark of the great ones is they close out the opponent under the lights in the finals, not just keep coming in 2nd over and over. My house is filled full of trophies, I have 60 lst place ones. I have no 2nd or 3rd place ones, every one I won, I threw in the trash dumpster out side the joint. To me, a 2nd place trophy is a badge of a loser. Winning is all this is about in life. I got dragged into this same statement 6 months ago and the board came on and Crucified me for a week, the thread went 5 pages, I think that was on ccb, but that board is filled with nothing but losers and choking dogs any way so I expected that concept to go over their head. HERE IS A INTERESTING TRIVAL QUESTION. In the majors, what golfer won the most of the big ones, the majors.

What player also finished 2nd the most in them?

Here is your answer, the same player, Jack Nickalaus, and he is like me, you can't find one of those 2nd place tin cups in his house, he threw every one in the dumpster like me. So before you guys tee off on me again for this, winners only want to win, their greatest pain, is knowing they were in a position to win, close it out and choked and could not put it to bed.
To Efrens credit he did conquer the beast and is number one in the world today. Too bad he did not figure that out 20 years ago. Mike Massey was just like Efren, we could all take him with no problem back in the mid to late 90's. He could not hold up. Like Efren he was the greatest player of his time but it meant little if he could not convert it. Mike solved his demon as well in 2000 and has now won 3 of the last 4 world championships. Mike is on track of becoming if he has not already the greatest artistic player of all time. He just has not completed his decade yet. Right now he is a shoe in for my vote on this.

A famous saying from Lou Durocher, coach of the Brooklyn dodgers, show me a guy who thinks 2nd place is good and I will show you a loser.

Don't even get me started with my Vince Lombardi or Teddy Roosevelt quotes.
Losers are happy with a 2nd place check and smaller tin cup. So are the 3rd place losers. Both are losers, there is only one winner. Losers can never understand this concept, because they are losers and not winners

 

[Joseph Cues]

2003 Mid Atlantic 9-Ball Championships
2002 Challenge of Champions
2002 Shooters Labor Day Weekend Open 9-Ball Champion
2002 Cafe Puro Challenge of the Masters Champion
2002 Worl Pool League Champion
2001 Tokyo 9-Ball Champion
2001 World Pool League Champion
2001 Masters 9-Ball Championships
2001 Color of Money II Winner
2001 Supreme Masters of Billiards
2000 U.S. Open One-Pocket Championship
2000 Camel Pro 8-Ball Championship
2000 Pennsylvania State 9-Ball Championship
2000 USA Billiards Challenger Event
1999 ESPN Ultimate 9-Ball Challenge
1999 Victor Chandler World Pool Championship
1999 Derby City Classic - One Pocket Championship
1999 Sands Regency Open 29 9-Ball Championship
1999 All Japan Championship (Japan Open)
1998 World 8-Ball Championship
1998 South Jersey 10-Ball Championship
1996 Sands Regency Open 9-Ball Championship
1996 The Color of Money 9-Ball Champion (Reyes vs Strickland)
1996 PBT World 8-Ball Championship
1996 Legends 9-Ball Championship
1996 Florida Flare Up III 9-Ball Championship
1996 Western Open 9-Ball Championship
1995 Maine Event 14.1 Championships
1995 Sands Regency Open 21 9-Ball Championship
1995 PBT World 8 Ball Championship
1995 Pro Tour Championship 9-Ball
1995 Player of the Year
1994 U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship
World Team Championship (Team Philippines)
1992 International 8-Ball Classic
1992 World 9-Ball Open (Tokyo)
1990 World Cup (Taipei) 1988 McDermott Masters
1987 SEA Games Gold Medalist (snooker) 1986 Sands Regency 9-Ball Championship
1985 Sands Regency 9-Ball Championship 1985 Houston Red's Open (under assumed name "Cezar Morales
.............
Not a bad looking resume for a choker.
Larry, you're digging a bigger hole all the time.

 

[fast larry]

Larry are you on crack? You said Efren is not great? Earl in his own words said "Ive played them all and Efren is the best!"

Look S*** for brains, I do not do drugs, or smoke anything, I do not suck poison into my body, only a dope, does dope.
I wondered how long it would take for your sorry ass to show up, what comes in next, the newfie and the other bozos. Go away, this is too intelligent for you, very over your figgin head. We are actually carrying on an intelligent conversation politely with out trashing each other. We are learning how to do this. This is going very well. Don't screw this up, just butt out. You ARE NOT WELCOME HERE, EVERY POST YOU COME IN ON IS EITHER AN ATTACK OR A DIG, BUG OFF, HIT THE ROAD, HASTA LA VISTA, BABY.....

Oh GD, I rest my case when i called you the worlds biggest moron and bozo. Where in the hell did I ever say that, I'll bet you a million dollars you cant find where I said that. Stop and I repeat stop, mis quoting me, stop putting words in my mouth I did not say. Stop shooting the messenger, because you do not like the message. Sometimes the truth does sting like a bitch, doesn't it boys. All bozos are banned off of this thread, you all go trash some other post and beat some other poor guy into the ground for stating an opinion that varies from yours. For one time, butt out bozos, please. This is a non bozo thread, give us that please. Do not come in where you are not welcome. Accept you are voted off this Island.

I know Earl, I really know Earl, and I can assure you, when he said that it was because you all forced him to say that. He uttered a lie just to get you all off his back and to stop the vicious attacks on him. Earl no more believes this than you can make be believe I can't run 3 friggin balls. Earl has taken Efren out many times in big matches. Earl for President, since you wont vote for me, why not Earl.
For me, I do not take sides here, my position is both are great champions, I admire both of them. I am trying hard to maintain this into a peaceful intelligent conversation I am enjoying. A good debate is a good thing. Here comes the bozos to trash talk me and bust this up. Do not even begin with your insults. If you cant say something intelligent on this thread or submit a intellignet response, counter quuestion then take your trailor court digs and attacks and put them where the sun dont shine. Go brush your tooth, crawl back under your rock under your house trailor sumb bucket.