body position when lining up the shot ...square vs angled

[WobblyStroke]

"So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement".

i don't know if i fully understand this but i'm think i'm doing something similar and have seen better results.
basically what i'm doing is instead of trying to get down on the shot with the cue perfectly placed on the exact same spot under my chin everytime, now i'm getting down on the shot in a more relaxed manner without focusing so much on the exact spot on my chin that the cue is going to touch and without any tension.
could it be that when i was focusing too much on my vision center placement, as i was getting down on the shot,i was taking the cue to my body and not the body to the cue which was pulling the cue offline?who knows.
and could it be now that i get down more relaxed,i am able to place the cue more accurately on the shotline?

The nice thing about getting down relaxed is that you leave yourself open to barely noticeable subconscious adjustments your body will make for you as long as you allow it to. If you rigidly adhere to 'make sure the cue touches this part of my chin' your body will execute that as well, whether that chin is placed in the exact right spot or not.

maybe where you thought under your chin was not really your vision center spot and now you let nature find it for you?

Sounds about right to me. Either this, or your chin doesn't always plop down in the same spot relative to the line as this takes a bit of precision in body placement. This is especially true if you aren't coming straight down with your head but coming down from an offset as you mentioned (if I'm interpretting what you were saying correctly). Coming down from an offset makes it easy for the exact final placement of the chin to wander a bit. Not only that but any time you are changing both levels and alignment of the eyes between standing and down on the shot, you have a lot of visual distortions to deal with that will bring some inconsistency into your perception and therefore performance. Pretty much every instructor recommends coming straight down for this reason.

A tiny bit of offset is natural and expected when standing square, but once you step in with your left foot, that should pretty much get your head where you need it in your stance and you come straight down from there.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

It sounds like your reasoning might be correct as to why its happening. When you put all your concentration on one aspect there is no doubt that other aspects will be neglected.

Maybe its the same in my case that if i had stopped concentrating on putting my vision center on the shot so much and started concentrating more on the cue as well that I could have gotten better results without sightright.

Something that I left out which I should have said is that you probably can get similar results as sightright if you stand diagonally to the shot to help facilitate getting the eye and the arm closer together, this ws what geno teaches. In my case I would have to stand very diagonally on some shots. Even with a knee bend this is very uncomfortable to me as it twists my back. Previously my back as been injured from shooting this way (muscularly and structurally). Trying to avoid the twisting of the back might be another reason why I have trouble getting the cue on the line.

The thing with sightright is I can finally stand square and get the cue on the shotline without back twisting. In the past this seemed hopeless because the eye and the hand are in incompatible spots. Snooker players traditionally 'twist their hips' to get on the line this way. Well I tried this and had good results but I was in MAJOR pain after doing it for a few days so I had to stop.

When I use sightright I bend my knees as well to take strain off my back. With sightright the back pain is basically gone. I dont feel the strain in my back muscles that I would in my diagonal stance that made them feel like they were about to tear after playing for a long time. And I dont feel the structural damage feeling I would get if I was twisting my back to get on the shotline consistently with a square stance and traditional snooker methods.

However, even if I do the above experiment using my old way of going down the cue is still closer to the shot line with sightright. Maybe if I did the old way of going down and put more effort into the cue being on the line and less into the vision center my results would improve. I would try that but because of the back pain relief I get from a square stance I don't think I could go back regardless of the results.

Either way I think that its a sightright is a good product and I think geno's method are good as well. So if you have been playing a long time and there are a lot of shots that you always miss the exact same way every time even if you tried them 100 times in a row then it might really help to seek help from one or the other. With geno teaching a more diagonal stance and sightright advocating a square stance.

In my case the square stance of sightright has much better results and alleviates back pain.

Also good for back paid relief--bend from the hips, not the waist, and also use your knees, as if you want to lift the pool table off the floor--an athletic, poised stance that makes for a straight lower back.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

when you are behind the shot line before you step in
commonly i have read be square or perpendicular to the shot line
the move your right foot onto the shot line (for righties) and step into the shot with your left foot into your stance
snooker players hips are are square to the table so for them
this approach of starting square and staying square makes sense
pool players typically have their hips more angled to the shot line in their stance
so is it wrong to stand behind the shot more in the way you are when in your stance
ie shoulder and hips more angled than square??
your thoughts appreciated
thanks in advance

I am from the school that 'one size does not fit all'. So how to find your position? Try this: Stand up and do some air strokes just like ball players take practice swings. When your hand goes back your fist will open up where the heal of your hand will not be touching the cue. On the forward stroke your heal will touch the cue. This should be a loose and comfortable motion from your elbow to the cue. Do this several times until you are comfortable and confident with the cue movement.

Now to find your position. While air stroking, take a look at the angle of the cue in relation to your whole body . Now rotate your body (legs and feet) until your cue is on the shot line. I think this is the natural place to start and when shooting hard shots like the break you will have a tendency to move to this position.

Just my 2 cents...now I feel better.

 

[pw98]

Also good for back paid relief--bend from the hips, not the waist, and also use your knees, as if you want to lift the pool table off the floor--an athletic, poised stance that makes for a straight lower back.

I've tried that in the past and I've shot for so long bending my back that my stroke gets messed up doing it this way. I also tend to start missing reach shots when I do it this way. I suppose I'll try it again and maybe stick with it.

 

[z0nt0n3r]

I've tried that in the past and I've shot for so long bending my back that my stroke gets messed up doing it this way. I also tend to start missing reach shots when I do it this way. I suppose I'll try it again and maybe stick with it.

i'm also wondering about another thing, except for not focusing so much on your vision center placement as you were going down, what else helped you to place the cue on the line more consistently?

 

[pw98]

i'm also wondering about another thing, except for not focusing so much on your vision center placement as you were going down, what else helped you to place the cue on the line more consistently?

Experimenting with open feet positions and which ones seem to have better placement.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I've tried that in the past and I've shot for so long bending my back that my stroke gets messed up doing it this way. I also tend to start missing reach shots when I do it this way. I suppose I'll try it again and maybe stick with it.

Yes, if you stretch far to one side like Mike Sigel--who also hurt his neck that way.

People who do the stance I suggest here have told me it improved their back pain outside of pool and strengthened their lower back, providing relief!

Try it without a cue, to pick up a couch or sofa properly, you would sit down from an erect stance, so that your legs would bend outward from the knees and your lower back would remain straight, while removing the pressure the pelvis/hips place on the lower back while standing erect.

In this sort of sitting without a chair stance, your lower back should experience strengthening and pain relief and your upper back should also be eased, especially if you don't slam your chin onto your cue stick. Most people can play quite well with a head a foot or at maximum, two feet above the cue stick--worth it to miss an occasional shot to protect your back and neck.

Send photos or a video and I'll offer further advice if needed.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Yes, if you stretch far to one side like Mike Sigel--who also hurt his neck that way.

People who do the stance I suggest here have told me it improved their back pain outside of pool and strengthened their lower back, providing relief!

Try it without a cue, to pick up a couch or sofa properly, you would sit down from an erect stance, so that your legs would bend outward from the knees and your lower back would remain straight, while removing the pressure the pelvis/hips place on the lower back while standing erect.

In this sort of sitting without a chair stance, your lower back should experience strengthening and pain relief and your upper back should also be eased, especially if you don't slam your chin onto your cue stick. Most people can play quite well with a head a foot or at maximum, two feet above the cue stick--worth it to miss an occasional shot to protect your back and neck.

Send photos or a video and I'll offer further advice if needed.

A blown out back is what ended my competitive pool playing many years ago....actually any pool playing for about 12 years. Since returning to the game, that athletic position you describe is pretty much the only way i can enjoy the game. Luckily I can still get my head down to the point where my chin is just about grazing the cue.
I mean I could play my more snookerish competition stance, but I can't maintain that for more than 20-30min without strain and discomfort so no longer bother with it. Gotta play within the confines a limited body puts on you, textbook mechanics be damned.

 

[z0nt0n3r]

Experimenting with open feet positions and which ones seem to have better placement.

you mean experimenting with where to place the back foot in relation to the shot line,widening/closing the stance or making the stance more square/sideways?

 

[pw98]

you mean experimenting with where to place the back foot in relation to the shot line,widening/closing the stance or making the stance more square/sideways?

Both seem to have a a major effect on the how much of an angle off the shot line you obtain when going down.

 

[skiergd011013]

I have always just "played", and never learned how to properly line up my body with the shot. I filmed myself a few months ago, and was horrified at how wobbly my stroke looked. Ironically, I still played pretty good and am second best on my league, only behind a very, very strong player. I have been working on my game a lot lately. I bought a cheap mirror, and use an ironing board and the mirror at home so i can practice my stance and stroke and see myself (i dont have a table). I started doing exactly what neils feijen demonstrates here, and my game is seeing improvement. I am making longer shots with more accuracy, and can do table length draw shots now pretty consistently. It is also a nice pre shot routine. When your stance and alignment is off, it introduces all sorts of errors into your game.

 

[BlueRaider]

you mean experimenting with where to place the back foot in relation to the shot line,widening/closing the stance or making the stance more square/sideways?

My consistency skyrocketed when I started standing on the shot line with my back foot and then leaning over a bit to get my head on the shot line, too. Previously I was standing with my head square on the shot line, which meant my back foot was way over it. Then I would do some contorting to get my body on the shot line, but it wasn't enough.

I find it's much easier to start with my back foot on the line (or even slightly inside of it), lean my head over just enough to get it on the shot line, freeze my head in position, then step forward with my front foot to rotate my body in place. With my back foot and head already aligned with the shot, there's far less that can go wrong alignment-wise as I get down on the table.

 

[bbb]

My consistency skyrocketed when I started standing on the shot line with my back foot and then leaning over a bit to get my head on the shot line, too. Previously I was standing with my head square on the shot line, which meant my back foot was way over it. Then I would do some contorting to get my body on the shot line, but it wasn't enough.

I find it's much easier to start with my back foot on the line (or even slightly inside of it), lean my head over just enough to get it on the shot line, freeze my head in position, then step forward with my front foot to rotate my body in place. With my back foot and head already aligned with the shot, there's far less that can go wrong alignment-wise as I get down on the table.

since your right foot and head are over the shot line in your stance you might try to angle alittle when standing so your right foot and head are on the shot line without having to "Lean over a bit"

 

[BlueRaider]

since your right foot and head are over the shot line in your stance you might try to angle alittle when standing so your right foot and head are on the shot line without having to "Lean over a bit"

Shaw and many other pros are "leaners."

Check this out:

To be more specific, it's a combination of a slight angle and a slight lean. I'm cross-dominant which means leaning more than angling is more comfortable and accurate for me in terms of ensuring both my back foot and "vision center" are on the shot line.

 

[bbb]

Shaw and many other pros are "leaners."

Check this out:

To be more specific, it's a combination of a slight angle and a slight lean. I'm cross-dominant which means leaning more than angling is more comfortable and accurate for me in terms of ensuring both my back foot and "vision center" are on the shot line.

thanks alot for the link
the part i linked is where the instructor mentions how some pros are "diagonal" which to me is angled and others are "leaning" which to me they are more square behind the shot line
he infers both are used by pros which answers my original question for the thread and the question i had for the sightright people who advocate your vision center on the shot line in a square stance for them at this stage your back foot is NOT on the line
the common denominator for all 3 methods is having your vision center on the shot line when you are behind the shot
i enjoyed the the emphasis the instructor put on the shoulders and upper arm
i am happy you have a method that works well for you
good luck with your game

 

[EddieBme]

Every context has its own answer.



My evaluation criteria determine my stance in each situation. That criteria, distance aiming, approach on cueing line, and delivery of cue down the line are the principles no matter the situation. Often the table dictates the stance. A shot requiring some reach can force the hips square to the rail. Having to adjust to avoid touching balls causes us to morph our bodies to align. Flexibility and adaptability are the keys. You need to decide what things are most important on a case by case basis.

I’m left eye dominant. Joe Davis was too. He looked at the line from the bridge hand, through the head and upper right arm and decided that worked. He had to bend over to lay them in a straight line running under his body. That has a natural alignment ring to it too. But most of us can’t lay out a fully extended bridge arm. A square stance to me would seem counter intuitive since the right eye more naturally positions over my right cueing arm line, not the left. However, my desire to cue beside my body, making it possible to straight cue using my upper chest as a guide was more important to me. That said getting my vision on line and keeping it there is primary.

There is an adage that people decide based on emotion and justify with logic. Could we be looking at and hearing justifications players tell themselves for what they do? Pick what you think is most important and in what order. Make a decision and stick to your choice, unless something comes along forcing you to change your priorities.

Interesting. I don't think I've seen any instructors actually teach the method about using your chest as a gauge or as a part of a PSR ....."However, my desire to cue beside my body, making it possible to straight cue using my upper chest as a guide was more important to me. That said getting my vision on line and keeping it there is primary."

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Interesting. I don't think I've seen any instructors actually teach the method about using your chest as a gauge or as a part of a PSR ....."However, my desire to cue beside my body, making it possible to straight cue using my upper chest as a guide was more important to me. That said getting my vision on line and keeping it there is primary."

A great way to use the chest in the PSR is start assessing the upcoming cut by standing sternum, navel and nose on the line of centers between c.b. and o.b. and using the chest and shoulders by feel to ensure you are perpendicular to the line of centers.

NOT with one foot forward because you are rushing the PSR to shoot.

NOT trying to put any part of your body or vision center on the shot line or any center-to-edge line, etc.

Solely to give yourself an absolute (and pro-like) frame of reference for every cut shot.

 

[EddieBme]

A great way to use the chest in the PSR is start assessing the upcoming cut by standing sternum, navel and nose on the line of centers between c.b. and o.b. and using the chest and shoulders by feel to ensure you are perpendicular to the line of centers.

NOT with one foot forward because you are rushing the PSR to shoot.

NOT trying to put any part of your body or vision center on the shot line or any center-to-edge line, etc.

Solely to give yourself an absolute (and pro-like) frame of reference for every cut shot.

Thanks, Matt. I'm going to give it a shot, although I'm not completely sure I understand where the cue position will be, underneath the body, when bending over preparing to shoot.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Thanks, Matt. I'm going to give it a shot, although I'm not completely sure I understand where the cue position will be, underneath the body, when bending over preparing to shoot.

You can move the body off that line when stepping into the stance, I'm sharing the precise way to gauge the upcoming cut with an absolute frame of reference. Most players have a foot forward or something else (for example, placing the eyes over the shot line before starting at the line of centers to see) that make aim a guessing game that varies day-to-day and even shot-to-shot.

 

[EddieBme]

You can move the body off that line when stepping into the stance, I'm sharing the precise way to gauge the upcoming cut with an absolute frame of reference. Most players have a foot forward or something else (for example, placing the eyes over the shot line before starting at the line of centers to see) that make aim a guessing game that varies day-to-day and even shot-to-shot.