I was referring to American Heritage about the Made In USA thing... So you are saying that Legacy supplies Olhausen with rails and legs? I'll wait for your reply...
Brunswick Manchester LE
- Thread starter gbs52
- Start date
I'm not saying they still do.I'm just saying they have.Olhausen looked to purchase 5 import tables to add to there line also.They will not carrie the Olhausen logo.So a company that is so anti China doesn't mind purchasing from China.And I know these things because I know a few chiefs at Legacy.Legacy is now putting their efforts to a Pool Room In A Box.
I shopped the Olhausen dealer here in Atlanta over the week end and they where pretty anti Brunswick and China while I was in the store until.Until I noticed that they also had Legacy product on there showroom floor.So I asked why knock Brunswick product because its made in China and Brazil when you have what you refered to as cheap China product on your floor.Still waiting on my answer......Price point was the only thing he could come up with.Why bash a product that you display....
Subjective, objective...objective, subjective....The debate of made in USA and China, et. al. is more of a subjective manner. This is like the Chevy vs Ford debate that is ongoing forever. Then comes Toyota and trumps them both! There are great top the the line and expensive S class mercedes that are trashed from abuse and inexpensive entry level automobiles that remain emmaculate after years with good care.
If chinese billiard products are so inferior, why are so many of them available for sale? Why dont some billiard showrooms carry legacy and other overseas tables? BTW I did see Legacy tables displayed alongside Bruswicks in a showroom in Atlanta. why does Inside Pool Magazine list at least two chinese built tables as recommendations? Article is found at the following link. insidepoolmag.com/product-reviews/pool-table-reviews/content/view/3710/80/
This is an objective article that has merit as these recommended tables have been handled, played on and inspected by the test panel. Non of the tables listed have been judged subjectivly by hearsay, myths, assumptions or down right lies.
I think that many table componets are outsoursed to china and other countries becase it is cheaper. The labor force works for lower wages, there are no unions to deal with, dont have to pay for health insurance, vacations, family leave, etc. The U.S. manufactuers can assemble these tables, market and sell them at a substantial savings to the customer.
I am sure there are many thousands of Chinese made Brunswick pool tables in homes with satisfied customers. Conversly, I am sure there are many thousands of made in the USA tables that are nightmares. But that is a subjective viewpoint as I have no hard evidence to this.
The non American made tables are less expensive than the great Olhaussens, etc. That does not necessarly mean less quality, if a table meets all BCA standards. If one is going to spend 5000.00 or more on a table, it better perform as a well oiled $100,000 S class mercedes. On the other hand, a well built overseas table costing less than 2000.00 can perfom as well as a $35,000 Chevy, who the hell cares? Both cars get you to where you want to go. With proper care, both cars will last for years.
I have cruised thru several showrooms selling many brands of tables and IMHO, they are priced way too high for my budget and common sense. For me that opinion is objective, a reality for me. I went the wholesale route and purchased a table for several thousand dollars less than a similar looking Olhassen and so far I am satisfied.
I am finding out that pool table salesmen are like automobile salesmen...They tout thier product and trash the competition. I am more than satisfied with my chevy silverado that I purchase used from a Ford dealer much to the chigrin of the Ford flag waiving salesman trying his hardest to sell me an F150.
As far as the photos of the trashed brunswick, they are subjective. That table could have been a lemon by inferior design or it could have been damaged by mishandling and abuse. I will not make a determination one way or the other.
If chinese billiard products are so inferior, why are so many of them available for sale? Why dont some billiard showrooms carry legacy and other overseas tables? BTW I did see Legacy tables displayed alongside Bruswicks in a showroom in Atlanta. why does Inside Pool Magazine list at least two chinese built tables as recommendations? Article is found at the following link. insidepoolmag.com/product-reviews/pool-table-reviews/content/view/3710/80/
This is an objective article that has merit as these recommended tables have been handled, played on and inspected by the test panel. Non of the tables listed have been judged subjectivly by hearsay, myths, assumptions or down right lies.
I think that many table componets are outsoursed to china and other countries becase it is cheaper. The labor force works for lower wages, there are no unions to deal with, dont have to pay for health insurance, vacations, family leave, etc. The U.S. manufactuers can assemble these tables, market and sell them at a substantial savings to the customer.
I am sure there are many thousands of Chinese made Brunswick pool tables in homes with satisfied customers. Conversly, I am sure there are many thousands of made in the USA tables that are nightmares. But that is a subjective viewpoint as I have no hard evidence to this.
The non American made tables are less expensive than the great Olhaussens, etc. That does not necessarly mean less quality, if a table meets all BCA standards. If one is going to spend 5000.00 or more on a table, it better perform as a well oiled $100,000 S class mercedes. On the other hand, a well built overseas table costing less than 2000.00 can perfom as well as a $35,000 Chevy, who the hell cares? Both cars get you to where you want to go. With proper care, both cars will last for years.
I have cruised thru several showrooms selling many brands of tables and IMHO, they are priced way too high for my budget and common sense. For me that opinion is objective, a reality for me. I went the wholesale route and purchased a table for several thousand dollars less than a similar looking Olhassen and so far I am satisfied.
I am finding out that pool table salesmen are like automobile salesmen...They tout thier product and trash the competition. I am more than satisfied with my chevy silverado that I purchase used from a Ford dealer much to the chigrin of the Ford flag waiving salesman trying his hardest to sell me an F150.
As far as the photos of the trashed brunswick, they are subjective. That table could have been a lemon by inferior design or it could have been damaged by mishandling and abuse. I will not make a determination one way or the other.
I was shopping for a used car for my wife about a year ago. We looked for two weeks trying different models, reading literature, checking forums etc... We finally found a Cadillac Catera sitting on a small car lot. Mint 47,000 miles for 6 grand cash. We had never considered a Cadillac and never did any research but I figured a Cadillac was a Cadillac, parts are expensive but they are nice luxury vehicles.
We drove it and she really liked the way it handled. I thought the interior was really clean and contemporary looking. I have a buddy that is a mechanic, he's been in the business a long time. I told the guy I wanted to have my mechanic look at it and we set up an appointment. I talk to my mechanic later and he said it had a bad O2 sensor but he also gave me his opinion on the car. Which is the reason I sent it to him in the first place.
Apparently these cars have a history of complicated problems. Stalling, loud noises etc... They are made by Opel in Germany or somewhere? He shows me a 13 page print out of all the things that have been recorded problems. Which brings me to my point. I never had a doubt about the name Cadillac. We were very excited about the car on the ride home made our decision that we would buy it.
Regardless of the name you have to do your own homework and find what is best for you and suites your expectations. If I wanted to be bull headed and buy the car I would have probably made the wrong move. We thought hard about it. I know people who own them that have never had a irregular problem. I'll just consider myself lucky that I had someone experienced and willing to give me a hand making a tough decision. He works on these cars inside and out... Old trucks, diesel engines, hot rods, everything.
That's all I am trying to do with people here on these forums. I have no vested interest in any Olhausen product. I speak straight from the heart. I truly believe Olhausen is the best but I know my opinion is worth little. I'm not begging anyone to change there mind. I'm not the one that has to live with it.
Brunswick makes a nice table. I never said they didn't... I have a lot of respect for Brunswicks history. I collect old billiard antiques, ivory diamond sights, chalk, tips the majority of my stuff bares the BBC logo or I wish it did, one or the other.
What I don't respect is a corporation thriving off of the name to collect ridiculous profits while corners are being cut.
Olhausen's Savoy collection is a shame. Not the table but because the economy forces a strong American made company to source out so they can meet their needs. Why are we sending all of this money overseas? I was there at Olhausen's ribbon cutting and I meet people from Portland, TN that never dreamed of working for "Olhauser"
. I know these guys take pride in their work. Look at the people who made the move from San Diego. Imagine having to leave friends, cousins, brothers etc. behind. It takes a strong force to separate you from family. Some of these guys are near retirement.
BTW... The first Savoy table I built I had a problem with. I've built 6 or 7 with no problems. I think they are great to have on the floor to show customers the difference in quality hands on. Then when you do run into the bullheaded guy sell him a Chinese table. Everyone is happy except your installer
We drove it and she really liked the way it handled. I thought the interior was really clean and contemporary looking. I have a buddy that is a mechanic, he's been in the business a long time. I told the guy I wanted to have my mechanic look at it and we set up an appointment. I talk to my mechanic later and he said it had a bad O2 sensor but he also gave me his opinion on the car. Which is the reason I sent it to him in the first place.
Apparently these cars have a history of complicated problems. Stalling, loud noises etc... They are made by Opel in Germany or somewhere? He shows me a 13 page print out of all the things that have been recorded problems. Which brings me to my point. I never had a doubt about the name Cadillac. We were very excited about the car on the ride home made our decision that we would buy it.
Regardless of the name you have to do your own homework and find what is best for you and suites your expectations. If I wanted to be bull headed and buy the car I would have probably made the wrong move. We thought hard about it. I know people who own them that have never had a irregular problem. I'll just consider myself lucky that I had someone experienced and willing to give me a hand making a tough decision. He works on these cars inside and out... Old trucks, diesel engines, hot rods, everything.
That's all I am trying to do with people here on these forums. I have no vested interest in any Olhausen product. I speak straight from the heart. I truly believe Olhausen is the best but I know my opinion is worth little. I'm not begging anyone to change there mind. I'm not the one that has to live with it.
Brunswick makes a nice table. I never said they didn't... I have a lot of respect for Brunswicks history. I collect old billiard antiques, ivory diamond sights, chalk, tips the majority of my stuff bares the BBC logo or I wish it did, one or the other.
What I don't respect is a corporation thriving off of the name to collect ridiculous profits while corners are being cut.
Olhausen's Savoy collection is a shame. Not the table but because the economy forces a strong American made company to source out so they can meet their needs. Why are we sending all of this money overseas? I was there at Olhausen's ribbon cutting and I meet people from Portland, TN that never dreamed of working for "Olhauser"
. I know these guys take pride in their work. Look at the people who made the move from San Diego. Imagine having to leave friends, cousins, brothers etc. behind. It takes a strong force to separate you from family. Some of these guys are near retirement.BTW... The first Savoy table I built I had a problem with. I've built 6 or 7 with no problems. I think they are great to have on the floor to show customers the difference in quality hands on. Then when you do run into the bullheaded guy sell him a Chinese table. Everyone is happy except your installer
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Just wanted to reiterate that I did say this was done by a hack. Regardless, a leg should not buckle like that. We scooted are tables to perfectly position them and we never had a problem like that with Olhausen's, Connelly, Gandy, CL Bailey, Antiques...
For anyone still scratching your head.......
$3500 Brunswick Manchester
*note table gets a lot of play, whoever set it up was a complete hack.
Vs.
$3500 Olhausen Santa Ana
*note, this table went through a freggin Tornado!
I guarantee if you wipe the dust off of both tables right now the Olhausen plays better...
$3500 Brunswick Manchester
*note table gets a lot of play, whoever set it up was a complete hack.
Vs.
$3500 Olhausen Santa Ana
*note, this table went through a freggin Tornado!
I guarantee if you wipe the dust off of both tables right now the Olhausen plays better...
Poolschool said:
You hit the nail on the head when you speak about doing you own homework. Everyone has different tastes, budgets, expectations and needs. Look at the quality put in the product and not the brand name. You bring up Cadallac as a good example. I owned an escalade for a couple of years and used the extended warranty for repair work on more than one occasion. I also owned a Mercedes S500. It was a money pit with all the repairs. The mirror vanity above the back seat fell off in my daughter's lap once. One would think a $85,000 vehicle purchased new would have better reliability. Glad i bought it for $25 grand used...lol.
In my business I deal with bullheaded clients on a daily basis and I deal with clients with thier realities and expectations and make descisions based on thier personal needs.
I don't doubt you when you say that Olhausen is the best. You have lots of experience with the brand. I talked to a salesman who sells American Heritage and swore up and down his tables were the best on the market. He showed me a breakdown of a table and explained how it is constructed from the floor up. Of course all he had in his inventory was American Heritage. Again just a matter of opinion and personal experience with the brand. I apprecieate you opinions on these boards as you are willing to take the time to share your general knowlege about tables. (not just olhaussen knowlege)
It is not unusual for American companies to outsource overseas. As I stated in my last post it is due to pure economics. In this country the federal govt. has placed so many regulations and rules it can choke a horse. And then you have the IRS! Outsourcing saves companies billions in production costs. Due to the capitalistic, free market society we live in with competition, supply and demamd, these cost savings are usually passed to the consumer. One possible drawback to outsourcing is an inferior product in return.
dogdoc said:
I agree...
Thanks for adding that... You summed it up nicely.