California Legislation on Ivory Ban

Poolplaya.........

" As I recall one of their suppliers was busted for selling illegal ivory (in which case obviously some cue makers got and used some".

I already acknowledged this in one of my posts........I am as informed as you........it likely would have never even happened if there was proper licensing, inspections and audits of sellers of raw ivory as I originally described.

You are trying to put the collar on the wrong end of the dog with your argument.......which is pretty weak in my opinion.....legal ivory here for decades isn't putting money in the pockets of the poachers or smugglers nor is it the reason why elephants are being poached and butchered for their body parts.

USA cue-makers are entitled to use any materials that are legal.......and pre-ban ivory is legal.......and legal is legal.......what's not clear? As I earlier alluded to, you can't argue with a rock.

Matt B.
 
What's the big deal? No one knows if you have ivory in your cue unless you tell them. You don't know if I have ivory in my cue unless I tell you. Granted you could probably tell a material is ivory if you look at it really close. Maybe with a microscope or a black light. At that point it really doesn't matter what material it is.

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jburkm002 said:
What's the big deal? No one knows if you have ivory in your cue unless you tell them. You don't know if I have ivory in my cue unless I tell you. Granted you could probably tell a material is ivory if you look at it really close. Maybe with a microscope or a black light. At that point it really doesn't matter what material it is.

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The big deal is that eventually the laws may make it open to seizure of products likely to have ivory.

That means any cue with white plastic could be subject to seizure.

They don't identify ivory with a microscope. They take a sample of it.

The bigger deal is that laws like this only serve to make more people criminals. If you are in possession of outlawed materials, you are a criminal, regardless of whether you get caught.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
My point is not that cue makers are using illegal ivory and you know it. My point was simply that there is no way to know or to verify with them or anyone else (in opposition to your point that there was a way to know). There just simply isn't. Ivory is something that cannot be reliably regulated to ensure that it is legal at any step along the way. It just isn't possible, particularly as it gets nearer to the end user/craftsman such as a cue maker since its form gets significantly changed and there is significant loss/waste produced and because legal ivory looks/smells/tastes just like illegal ivory does.

But in the end it really doesn't matter whether all ivory that has ever been used in every cue ever made has all been legal ivory. The fact of the matter is that as long as ivory has much value, the elephants will be poached into extinction. And as long as there is a legal market where ivory is allowed to be bought and sold, it will continue to have significant value. It just doesn't get any more simple than this, as much as it sucks for those that appreciate ivory and who would be legal and responsible about using it, owning it, trading in it, or harvesting or not further harvesting it.

To save the elephants, ivory must be made to have no value--there just isn't any other way. And the only way to make ivory have no value is to make it completely illegal to buy and sell in all markets globally. You may not like this fact, and I don't either, but it doesn't change that it is still a fact. Now we just need to deal with it instead of continuing to pretend we can have an ivory trade as well as elephants--it simply isn't possible. If you think otherwise and believe you have the way to prevent the poaching and ultimate extinction of elephants as long as ivory has any significant value then I am all ears.
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If you want to guarantee the survival of African elephants then you need to kill all the Africans. Elephants are not all being killed for their ivory.

Wild elephants and modernity don't mix very well. Maybe you missed this obvious point.
 
The American liberals solution for every problem-pass another law. Mr Obama will be very proud of you.

The elephant population will still decline because Asians do not have your values regarding ivory.

Best hope is kill the poachers, sell ivory from rogue elephants(you seem to think the people in countries where elephants are a native species love the elephants), and use the proceeds to secure sanctuaries for the elephants.

We still have bison in the U.S. but they do not roam free as they once did. They were saved from extinction by private and government help. We can do that for elephants but it will require some help from ivory and non-ivory users.
 
rhinobywilhite said:
The American liberals solution for every problem-pass another law. Mr Obama will be very proud of you.

The elephant population will still decline because Asians do not have your values regarding ivory.

(snip). .
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You might want to read the links I provided that dispels this myth.


Jeff Livingston
 
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