Calling the double hit foul (close CB to OB) in the APA

[nbates]

I would like to add that unseen and misunderstood double-hits are the bane of my existence. I call these fouls on my teammates anytime it happens, even once on a made 8-ball shot to win their match. I would prefer my teammates have integrity, rather than a good win/loss ratio.

I would also like to point out that, in the rule book downloaded directly from the APA website, poolplayers.com, it specifically mentions that a double-hit is a foul in two places. In my experience, too many people in the APA take word-of-mouth rules as the "The Word" instead of looking at the actual rule book. Please disregard this statement if your local bylaws have an exception to the double-hit rule. Many people try to claim that this rule doesn't apply to SL4s or lower, but this is not the case.

If you need some help educating your fellow players, put this YouTube video on your cellphone and show it to repeat offenders while you are practicing. Compliments of Dr. Dave Billiards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubbAzu_sCS4&list=PL650CAC26A955DCF8

It shows many different types of double-hits, including those that people believe can be avoided simply by jacking up their cue. This should help you explain the physics behind the offense.

 

[Donny Lutz]

You can't strike the cue ball twice on one stroke.

It seems the majority of players in the APA don't understand this foul. (CB close to OB and both balls leave the point of impact at the same velocity and move together)
Sadly, many of the refs don't either. When playing in the national Vegas singles tournament, this foul occurred with a ref watching and he called it a good hit. In general, SL4 and below, I won't call the bad hit, but I think SL5's and above should know better... However it seems to bring about more arguments than it's worth.

I'm curious what other players/captains do when they see this foul occur in the APA... I watched an SL5 do this a couple nights ago, I didn't call the foul, but went to the opposing captain (strong SL6 who knows a good amount of pool theory) asked him his thoughts. He said he wasn't watching the shot so he couldn't comment. The shooter overheard our conversation after his turn at the table and then came over and started defending how he could make the balls travel together without a double hit with only 1/4 inch between the CB and OB... So annoying...

When I encountered this in Vegas I pulled all the money out of my wallet and challenged the referee and the player to set the cue ball 12 inches away from the object ball and to make the same thing happen where the balls contact each other and then roll together... They told me the physics are different from that distance... I guess those things they teach you when getting your engineering degree don't apply to pool...

In baseball, if you hit the ball twice with the bat, you are out. In tennis, if you strike the ball twice, you lose the point. Would a referee in tennis or a baseball ump choose not to call a double hit?
(In anticipation of responses, yes there are double hits in those sports, sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose, sometimes in jest.)

As part of my basics lesson, I teach how to recognize the double hit, call the double hit, and avoid the double hit (four different ways). A few years back, league directors used to call me to come to their team captain's meeting and demonstrate the above. It helped avoid lots of problems.

IMO not calling the double hit is a step backward in pool, much like playing slop and using rules that encourage sand-bagging.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[droveto]

A few years back, league directors used to call me to come to their team captain's meeting and demonstrate the above. It helped avoid lots of problems.

Which goes back to my earlier point that it has a lot do with a league operator that cares about having good pool played in their league. An indifferent league operator leads to indifferent division reps leads to ignorant captains...

When I played in Hoboken, Andy Segal was our league operator (trick shot champion) and for whatever reason this shot was much better understood than here in Boston where I am now. We also had a strong pool community with tournaments run by players out of the local pool hall frequently and a large group of people that cared about good pool. It was infrequent I'd have an opposing captain that who didn't understand this double hit or would argue with me if I called it a foul. If an argument did occur, I got their email address and sent them links to show them how wrong they were and we stamped the problem out.

 

[APA Operator]

As someone previously mentioned, most BCA players recognize the double hit foul whereas 80% of APA leaguers do not. Why is that? Simple…

The BCA includes a specific rule for judging double hits in absence of a referee. APA has no such rule.

If the cue and object ball are less than the width of one chalk cube apart, it will be considered a foul if the shooter shoots straight through the cue ball-OB combo AND the cue ball passes beyond the point at which the OB previously sat on the table.

Incidentally, Dr Dave and Bob Jewett do an excellent job explaining these shots in beautiful high-speed and slow mo video. Getting other boneheaded leaguers to watch the vid is another story.


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Though I must admit that I'm taking you on your word here, as I haven't checked the BCAPL rules to verify, but isn't that just another form of hand-waving? You don't know for certain that the shot as described will be a foul, do you? So BCAPL will rule foul in cases where no foul has occurred?

By the way, what do you do if it's not obvious whether the cue ball is within the width of a chalk cube, stop the match, get out a piece of chalk and measure? If you bump one of the balls while measuring, have you committed a foul? If I can find (or create) one, should I carry around a really large cube of chalk to use against my opponents? After all, isn't taking advantage of the rules what it's all about, according to several posters in this thread?

I always hate it when an NFL quarterback rushes to the line and quick-snaps while a defender is running off the field, to catch them with 12 men on the field. Legal? Yes. But in my opinion, unsportsmanlike. The same principle applies here. Taking advantage of a rule that is in place for the sole purpose of avoiding conflict (both APA and BCAPL) is, in my opinion, unsportsmanlike.

 

[APA Operator]

And that's why APA sucks ......

NOBODY has a damn clue about anything (rules or bylaws included) ...

When you ask for a hit to be watched, you expect the player shooting to wait for someone to get up to watch ... in most cases in my area they shoot immediately so the shot can't be watched by someone who you would think was proficient enough to know how to call it. You can tell by the sound of a double hit that it was a double hit. And yet these higher SL players when they are watching a hit, blindly walk away after the hit and say "GOOD HIT" which was a blatant foul.

THAT'S WHY APA SUCKS ... BUT UNFORTUNATELY IN SO MANY AREAS IT'S THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN ....

besides ... it's for fun .... and most everyone has had two or three to many to even shoot ...

I think you're complaining about PEOPLE here, not the league. And the way you describe it, it sounds like you still play even though you think it SUCKS. If you're really from Southern California, don't you have other options? Aren't there other leagues pretty much all over Southern California? APA can't be the only game in town there, so why do you even play (if you do)?

 

[droveto]

Though I must admit that I'm taking you on your word here, as I haven't checked the BCAPL rules to verify, but isn't that just another form of hand-waving? You don't know for certain that the shot as described will be a foul, do you? So BCAPL will rule foul in cases where no foul has occurred?

By the way, what do you do if it's not obvious whether the cue ball is within the width of a chalk cube, stop the match, get out a piece of chalk and measure? If you bump one of the balls while measuring, have you committed a foul? If I can find (or create) one, should I carry around a really large cube of chalk to use against my opponents? After all, isn't taking advantage of the rules what it's all about, according to several posters in this thread?

I always hate it when an NFL quarterback rushes to the line and quick-snaps while a defender is running off the field, to catch them with 12 men on the field. Legal? Yes. But in my opinion, unsportsmanlike. The same principle applies here. Taking advantage of a rule that is in place for the sole purpose of avoiding conflict (both APA and BCAPL) is, in my opinion, unsportsmanlike.

The thought is probably that if the CB and OB were a chalk distance away, the double hit is really pretty easy to spot without having to use some written rule, so it accounts for the end of the spectrum that should be easy to enough to hear and see.

The APA rule is that no double hits are allowed yet in my APA experience I've had very little success in calling double hits with the exception of my experience in Hoboken, NJ. I even had an APA ref in Vegas at the national singles tournament watch an opponent drive her cue straight through the cue ball on a close hit getting the cue ball to hit an inch to the left of the pocket her OB went in at nearly the same exact time. That marked the last time I ever participated in any APA singles events. I've since played in BCA leagues and the controversy of this hit has never once occurred. You can find fault in their system on paper with this issue, but the proof is in the pudding. I still captain an APA team, but it's really an issue I wish APA would resolve in some way. It's led a lot of players to a lot of frustration and the good captains that coach their team properly are handicapped because their players will not take this illegal shot while their opponents will.