Carom aiming

Occam's Razor said:
Rick (or anyone else),

Please clarify. I am confused by your statement indicating inside/outside affecting a carom angle (should be highlighted in blue above in your quoted text). I was under that the impression that only low/high on the CB changed the direction of the carom angle, and inside/outside spin only changed the direction of the CB's path AFTER contact with a rail? Is this not correct?

Maybe I have been wrong all these years, but the only way I see right or left english impacting the carom angle (slightly) is if you elevate and swerve to change the contact point on the first OB?

Thanks.

~Razor
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Razor,

You are probably going to get conflicting opinions, including physics explanations.

I am only speaking for myself through my 46 yrs. of playing caroms almost from day one. Plain horizontal side spin needs something, like a rail to 'play' off of. If sidespin can throw an object ball then it has something to 'play' off of. I was referring to a combination of spin, say 1:30 or 3:30 tip to cue ball contact.

While I agree that the side spin affect may be small in nature, IMHO it can be enough to result in success or failure.

Also, for me, I would rather 'control' the amount of directional top or bottom by moving off of the vertical axsis than with a variation of speed alone.

Some willl probably say that that just complicates matters & one should KISS. Well that is certainly up to you, but I do not think Billiards, bouncing balls off of balls when the tangent line can not even be hit unless you masse or jump the ball is simple. It is complex & at times requires complex techniques.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions with which you feel I might be of assistance.

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Razor,

You are probably going to get conflicting opinions, including physics explanations.

I am only speaking for myself through my 46 yrs. of playing caroms almost from day one. Plain horizontal side spin needs something, like a rail to 'play' off of. If sidespin can throw an object ball then it has something to 'play' off of. I was referring to a combination of spin, say 1:30 or 3:30 tip to cue ball contact.

While I agree that the side spin affect may be small in nature, IMHO it can be enough to result in success or failure.

Also, for me, I would rather 'control' the amount of directional top or bottom by moving off of the vertical axsis than with a variation of speed alone.

Some willl probably say that that just complicates matters & one should KISS. Well that is certainly up to you, but I do not think Billiards, bouncing balls off of balls when the tangent line can not even be hit unless you masse or jump the ball is simple. It is complex & at times requires complex techniques.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions with which you feel I might be of assistance.

Regards,
Click to expand...

He's got me on ignore, so someone please ask him how one cannot hit the tangent line when the hit produces the tangent line.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Razor,

<snip for brevity>

...but I do not think Billiards, bouncing balls off of balls when the tangent line can not even be hit unless you masse or jump the ball is simple. It is complex & at times requires complex techniques.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions with which you feel I might be of assistance.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Hello Rick,

I have snipped some of your post for brevity. Please do not think I have done so quote you out of context. That is not my intent, nor is it to pick nits.

I do not understand specifically the text I have highlighted in your post in blue above, the CB hitting the OB creates the tangent line, and you certainly do not need a jump or masse shot to do that...the tangent line just is what it is, as created by the hit, correct? You can alter the tangent line, of course, but I do not understand, nor agree that you cannot even hit the tangent line without a masse or jump? :confused:

Finally found the video I was thinking of, perhaps you have seen it? Mike Page indicates somewhere around the 1 min 40 sec mark that sidespin has no impact on the A-path.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J0I6IgLlo8&feature=plcp

Now, if we are working a carom off the B or C paths, then I certainly agree that sidespin (after contact with a rail) has a major influence on the CB path into the carom, as do follow and draw.

Anyway, this forum has been around a long time, and I'm sure this topic has been discussed to death on here, but for me, this is a good mental exercise to see what I remember, what I know, and what I never really knew to start with...

I am just exercising my brain after a lengthy absence from the game. Sorry for everyone else out there if you consider this basic, fundamental type stuff. To those that this applies, you may move along, nothing to see here. :wink:

My best wishes. Peace.

~Razor
 
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I've also found a technical article or two by Bob Jewett that seems to indicate that the A-path can be influenced by sidespin (not only top and botom, which I already know and can see with my own eyes at the table via results). However, I cannot interpret the Mr. Jewett's articles for certain...

I would love to know for sure, and if so, in a way, that can be practically applied. If anyone thinks they could translate them briefly to redneck, let me know and I will post them up, or perhaps you could direct me to a thread that has already covered the topic in the past.

What I am interested in specifically is in the topic of this thread, and if sidespin can have any affect on the CB's A-path relative to the tangent line (and thus the carom angle prior to contacting a rail).

Mr. Jewett's articles are great, but also are laced with math, physics, and whatnot. I believe he even mentions Pythagoras in one of them... :grin:

Best wishes to all,

Peace.

~Razor
 
Razor:
What I am interested in specifically is in the topic of this thread, and if sidespin can have any affect on the CB's A-path relative to the tangent line (and thus the carom angle prior to contacting a rail).
Click to expand...
Someone must have said this already: sidespin only affects the initial carom angle (the tangent line) by changing where you must hit the OB (because of throw). Even then the change is small.

pj
chgo
 
Occam's Razor said:
Hello Rick,

I have snipped some of your post for brevity. Please do not think I have done so quote you out of context. That is not my intent, nor is it to pick nits.

I do not understand specifically the text I have highlighted in your post in blue above, the CB hitting the OB creates the tangent line, and you certainly do not need a jump or masse shot to do that...the tangent line just is what it is, as created by the hit, correct? You can alter the tangent line, of course, but I do not understand, nor agree that you cannot even hit the tangent line without a masse or jump? :confused:

Finally found the video I was thinking of, perhaps you have seen it? Mike Page indicates somewhere around the 1 min 40 sec mark that sidespin has no impact on the A-path.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J0I6IgLlo8&feature=plcp

Now, if we are working a carom off the B or C paths, then I certainly agree that sidespin (after contact with a rail) has a major influence on the CB path into the carom, as do follow and draw.

Anyway, this forum has been around a long time, and I'm sure this topic has been discussed to death on here, but for me, this is a good mental exercise to see what I remember, what I know, and what I never really knew to start with...

I am just exercising my brain after a lengthy absence from the game. Sorry for everyone else out there if you consider this basic, fundamental type stuff. To those that this applies, you may move along, nothing to see here. :wink:

My best wishes. Peace.

~Razor
Click to expand...

Razor,

Sorry for the confusion. I did not re-state the premise of my earlier post. I was referring to a carom where access to the 'normal' tangent line for a desired carom is blocked by an interfering ball or pocket point & was pointing out that spin can help to still accomplish the carom, obviously with a 'different(new) tangent line'.

I believe the exact horizontal side spin has been 'discussed' in another thread. As I mentioned you will probably get differing opinions on whether or not it has an effect, depending on who else responds. As I said , if side spin can 'throw' an object ball then it seems logical to me that there must be a resultive reaction, although it may be small. 'Small' matters in Billiards & can be the difference between success & failure.

As I also said, I personally, would rather adjust the draw or follow 'speeds' by moving off of the vertical axsis instead of with just a speed of stroke adjustment alone. For some that may be a bit too complicated. If so, do not utilize it that way unless you 'practice' it & become comfortable with it.

Also the cue ball deflection & swerve of the side spin can also be utilized at times to assist in accomplishing a desired carom where the 'normal' tangent line is not readily accessible.

Again sorry for not re-stating the original premise & causing you the confusion.

As you have said, these aspects have been 'dicussed' many times before. It was not my intention to highjack the thread. I was merely 'trying' to point out that just because the 'normal' tangent lines may not be accessible through 'normal' means does not mean that a carom can not be accomplished.

I hope this clarifies my meaning & intentions.

Regards,
 
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Occam's Razor said:
I've also found a technical article or two by Bob Jewett that seems to indicate that the A-path can be influenced by sidespin (not only top and botom, which I already know and can see with my own eyes at the table via results). However, I cannot interpret the Mr. Jewett's articles for certain...

I would love to know for sure, and if so, in a way, that can be practically applied. If anyone thinks they could translate them briefly to redneck, let me know and I will post them up, or perhaps you could direct me to a thread that has already covered the topic in the past.
Click to expand...
I like reading Bob's articles. Post a link to the one(s) you're talking about and I'll try to interpret.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I like reading Bob's articles. Post a link to the one(s) you're talking about and I'll try to interpret.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Hello PJ,

Thank you. Here is one of the articles I have read a couple of times, thinking it may be appropriate to the topic of this thread:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1995-02.pdf

There is at least one other article, but I am pressed for time at the moment and will have to "dig" to find it... If it is okay, I may post it up later (for translation for dummies). :smile:

As you will see, Bob makes reference to English on the beginning of page two starting with the following quote:

"Now that we have the basic result, it's
time to examine some of the variations
that can arise with use of English... <snip
quote>"

At this point, after reading the article a couple of times, I would even be happy with a couple of simple and/or practical applications that can be applied at the table based on the content.

Appreciate your offer of assistance. Best wishes.

~Razor

Edit to add: and is this at odds (albeit maybe only slightly?) with what Mike Page says in his video (link in one of my posts above) about sidespin having no impact on the A-path / tangent line (before the CB hits a rail)?
 
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Occam's Razor said:
[...]
Edit to add: and is this at odds (albeit maybe only slightly?) with what Mike Page says in his video (link in one of my posts above) about sidespin having no impact on the A-path / tangent line (before the CB hits a rail)?
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with this. If you consider throw, the A-path/sidespin statement becomes slightly wrong, and if you consider real-world (inelastic) collisions, the "tangent" is not at 90 degrees, even with no sidespin.

But if you squint a little bit, you don't see these things. And as a practical paradigm for understanding what you see and experience on a pool table, the "90 degree tangent carom" and "sidespin having no effect on the A-path" notions are useful and get you a long way...
 
Occam's Razor said:
I've also found a technical article or two by Bob Jewett that seems to indicate that the A-path can be influenced by sidespin (not only top and botom, which I already know and can see with my own eyes at the table via results). However, I cannot interpret the Mr. Jewett's articles for certain...

I would love to know for sure, and if so, in a way, that can be practically applied. If anyone thinks they could translate them briefly to redneck, let me know and I will post them up, or perhaps you could direct me to a thread that has already covered the topic in the past.
Click to expand...
In figure 3, Bob is showing that because the object ball is thrown to the left with right english, the cueball will travel a little faster down the tangent line as required by the conservation of momentum. The opposite is true when the object ball is thrown to the right (with no english or left english, say), it'll travel a little slower down the tangent line compared to the no-throw case.

Occam's Razor said:
What I am interested in specifically is in the topic of this thread, and if sidespin can have any affect on the CB's A-path relative to the tangent line (and thus the carom angle prior to contacting a rail).
Click to expand...
In some cases it can have a somewhat large effect, namely, when you're trying to direct the cueball just a wee bit forward of the tangent line with slight follow, or a wee bit back of the tangent line with slight draw. I posted a link to a brief description earlier in this thread.

Also note that whatever swerve doesn't happen before the collision, will happen after it (modified a bit by friction during the collision).

Jim
 
Occam's Razor said:
Hello PJ,

Thank you. Here is one of the articles I have read a couple of times, thinking it may be appropriate to the topic of this thread:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1995-02.pdf

There is at least one other article, but I am pressed for time at the moment and will have to "dig" to find it... If it is okay, I may post it up later (for translation for dummies). :smile:

As you will see, Bob makes reference to English on the beginning of page two starting with the following quote:

"Now that we have the basic result, it's
time to examine some of the variations
that can arise with use of English... <snip
quote>"
Click to expand...
The main points made after this are:

1. Throw (from the collision or from CB spin) changes the direction the OB goes, but not the direction the CB goes.

2. CB/OB of different weights make a difference - a heavier CB "penetrates" a little past the 90-degree tangent line; a lighter one "bounces" a little back from it.

3. CB/OB of different materials make a difference - depending on the materials.

pj
chgo
 
8pack said:
Just wondering if there's any method out there that gives you a since on creating certain paths off the ob .I already use the tangent line and practice creating certain angles off a half ball hit.Any info would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
FYI, there are lots of resources (including video demonstrations) dealing with how to aim carom and kiss shots here:
Check them out.

Also, aiming these types of shots is simply a matter of knowing where the CB will go for different angles, speeds, and spins. There are many systems available to predict CB direction fairly accurately for many different situations. These systems are described and demonstrated here:

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The main points made after this are:

1. Throw (from the collision or from CB spin) changes the direction the OB goes, but not the direction the CB goes.

2. CB/OB of different weights make a difference - a heavier CB "penetrates" a little past the 90-degree tangent line; a lighter one "bounces" a little back from it.

3. CB/OB of different materials make a difference - depending on the materials.
Click to expand...
FYI, here are some articles that explain and illustrate all of these effects:

Also, here's a video Bob Jewett and I did together to illustrate the effects of ball weight and size differences:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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