Changing the pin and refacing joint

LMB

LMB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently purchased a very nice playing and looking cue. The shafts and butt roll flat but when put together the tip lifts off the table when rolled with either shaft. I thought it was just a joint facing issue but after further inspection the pin appears to have a slight lift or wobble when rolled. How difficult is it to change the pin and reface and mate the shafts to straighten this out? What would this cost if it can be done?

Thanks,
Larry
 
If the pin comes out easily, it's a quick fix. Chances are the shaft was dealt with as sloppily as the pin, and you'll need to have the threads there reworked as well.

Depending on the pin, and if the shaft needs work, you can expect to pay 30 to 60 bucks.
 
LMB said:
I recently purchased a very nice playing and looking cue. The shafts and butt roll flat but when put together the tip lifts off the table when rolled with either shaft. I thought it was just a joint facing issue but after further inspection the pin appears to have a slight lift or wobble when rolled. How difficult is it to change the pin and reface and mate the shafts to straighten this out? What would this cost if it can be done?

Thanks,
Larry
Click to expand...

If it is bent, but otherwise centered in the butt, you can gently bend it back straight.
 
GEBrown said:
If it is bent, but otherwise centered in the butt, you can gently bend it back straight.
Click to expand...

You still be farting in the wind trying to bend it back to perfect,it'll be more of a pain in the A** trying to do that than switching the pin....if your trying to change it your self you can heat up the pin if its metal with a pen torch, BE CAREFUL THO, the heated pin will dampen the affect the glue has and make it easier to remove. There are many other techniques but this is one i've seen used very effectively quite a few times.

G.G.


This brings up a good point too, as I think the pin in a shaft is a good idea, can help with forwarding the balance and if you drop a shaft with the pin in it, as opposed to the butt, theres less weight to cause the pin to bend upon contact. Spain had a good idea, never understood why it never caught on more.
 
greyghost said:
You still be farting in the wind trying to bend it back to perfect,it'll be more of a pain in the A** trying to do that than switching the pin....if your trying to change it your self you can heat up the pin if its metal with a pen torch, BE CAREFUL THO, the heated pin will dampen the affect the glue has and make it easier to remove. There are many other techniques but this is one i've seen used very effectively quite a few times.

G.G.


This brings up a good point too, as I think the pin in a shaft is a good idea, can help with forwarding the balance and if you drop a shaft with the pin in it, as opposed to the butt, theres less weight to cause the pin to bend upon contact. Spain had a good idea, never understood why it never caught on more.
Click to expand...

Oops, my bad, I guess. Previous posts on this subject suggested bending the pin. Oh well.
 
GEBrown said:
Oops, my bad, I guess. Previous posts on this subject suggested bending the pin. Oh well.
Click to expand...

dont get me wrong you can definately make it much better and straighter, but would be extremely difficult to get it back to perfect
 
My first approach would be to try and straighten the pin.
Since the cue is incapable of healing itself, some outside intervention is needed.
The degree of intervention will determine whether this cue has related problems down the road or not.

With all due respect to Mr. Ghost, he's not a CM, and as such is offering an 'opinion' based on what he's seen. Please understand that I believe him to have nothing but the best intent in trying to help you, but to R&R a pin is best left to professionals, particularly if the cue has any value to you.
IMO, people are far too quick to make the decision to replace a pin. In most cases, they have no idea what's involved in the process and what the effects of such an action can have on the joint of their cue.

Let me describe the procedure so the reader will be better informed of what their cue is being subjected to.
To my knowledge there are only two ways to remove a pin. The first involves heating the pin to soften the bonding mtrl. which in most cases is epoxy, thereby allowing the pin to be 'unscrewed' from the joint. The second method is the actual machining away of the pin and the pin is removed a little at a time in the form of chips.
I've used both methods and don't like either.

The 'heating the pin' method has it's own set of drawbacks, the biggest being the heat. In order for the epoxy to be sufficiently softened to allow the pin to 'unscrew', the pin must be brought to a temperature of approx. 240 degrees. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the pin were the only thing being heated. As the pin is being heated, everything that it contacts and everything around it is also being heated, ie, forearm wood, joint collar, deco rings, finish, etc. Please consider the epoxy that is bonding those items. It's likely that the end-grain of the forearm will be charred. The heat being applied to the pin does not remain solely with the pin. All of the surrounding area of the pin is being heated to approx. the same temperature. What that means is that the epoxy that is securing everything in that area has now been compromised. If at some time in the future, your joint collar falls off or becomes loose, you'll know why.

The 'machining' method also has drawbacks. Since most pins are of stainless steel, special tooling is required, usually carbide. This should be considered a slow and tedious process and extreme caution should be exercised. The goal is to remove just the pin and none of the wood the pin is set into. There may be some heat generated but nothing like what the joint is exposed to in the first method.

Straightening the pin has none of the aforementioned drawbacks/consequences. As long as the pin is not bent over at a 90 degree angle, straightening to true is not difficult to do as long as common sense is exercised. Leave the hammer in the tool-box.

The removal methods are expensive and in most cases are unnecessary. If not done correctly, the consequences can be devastating. Straightening is quick and easy, the only expense being the CMs time.
But if you're someone who relishes drama, there's nothing like the excitement of open flames and a $1,000+ cue.
 
KJ Cues said:
But if you're someone who relishes drama, there's nothing like the excitement of open flames and a $1,000+ cue.
Click to expand...

:eek::shocked2::crying: Priceless.

Seriously, I'd try straightening first as well:

- Chuck the cue up front and back (two chuck setup) or at least with a proper size collet for the butt to fit into the spindle. Chuck on or as close as you can to the collar itself.

- Dial in the joint collar.

- Indicate the high spot on the pin.

- Start gently nudging pin over with you cross-slide/tool post.

- Spin by hand and check with indicator.

Once the pin is straightened you may still need to reface the joint. If the shaft was fitted and finished with the bent pin you'll still have to rework the shaft as well. Is it a wood thread or brass thread insert in the shaft?


Regards,
Frank
 
Thanks everyone for the info. The builder of this cue is a great guy and builds a great playing cue. I just knew he is very busy and was looking for advise. I have since talked with him and he insisted I sent it back to him so he could fix it free of charge.

Thanks again everyone there is some great info. from top notch AZers in this thread.

Larry
 
KJ Cues said:
My first approach would be to try and straighten the pin.
Since the cue is incapable of healing itself, some outside intervention is needed.
The degree of intervention will determine whether this cue has related problems down the road or not.

With all due respect to Mr. Ghost, he's not a CM, and as such is offering an 'opinion' based on what he's seen. Please understand that I believe him to have nothing but the best intent in trying to help you, but to R&R a pin is best left to professionals, particularly if the cue has any value to you.
IMO, people are far too quick to make the decision to replace a pin. In most cases, they have no idea what's involved in the process and what the effects of such an action can have on the joint of their cue.

Let me describe the procedure so the reader will be better informed of what their cue is being subjected to.
To my knowledge there are only two ways to remove a pin. The first involves heating the pin to soften the bonding mtrl. which in most cases is epoxy, thereby allowing the pin to be 'unscrewed' from the joint. The second method is the actual machining away of the pin and the pin is removed a little at a time in the form of chips.
I've used both methods and don't like either.

The 'heating the pin' method has it's own set of drawbacks, the biggest being the heat. In order for the epoxy to be sufficiently softened to allow the pin to 'unscrew', the pin must be brought to a temperature of approx. 240 degrees. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the pin were the only thing being heated. As the pin is being heated, everything that it contacts and everything around it is also being heated, ie, forearm wood, joint collar, deco rings, finish, etc. Please consider the epoxy that is bonding those items. It's likely that the end-grain of the forearm will be charred. The heat being applied to the pin does not remain solely with the pin. All of the surrounding area of the pin is being heated to approx. the same temperature. What that means is that the epoxy that is securing everything in that area has now been compromised. If at some time in the future, your joint collar falls off or becomes loose, you'll know why.

The 'machining' method also has drawbacks. Since most pins are of stainless steel, special tooling is required, usually carbide. This should be considered a slow and tedious process and extreme caution should be exercised. The goal is to remove just the pin and none of the wood the pin is set into. There may be some heat generated but nothing like what the joint is exposed to in the first method.

Straightening the pin has none of the aforementioned drawbacks/consequences. As long as the pin is not bent over at a 90 degree angle, straightening to true is not difficult to do as long as common sense is exercised. Leave the hammer in the tool-box.

The removal methods are expensive and in most cases are unnecessary. If not done correctly, the consequences can be devastating. Straightening is quick and easy, the only expense being the CMs time.
But if you're someone who relishes drama, there's nothing like the excitement of open flames and a $1,000+ cue.
Click to expand...

yea just sharing what limited experience i do have, and you explain your thoughts very well, I like how you say neither way of removal is something you care for. This makes me question more on the whole point of the pin being set in the butt.

Why is it when you see older cues with the pin in the shaft, and then in newer cues you don't unless its carom cues? Spain was famous for this, and it seems pin in shaft cues became are mostly relegated to the cheap asian products. How many makers do you know that did that? Spain, Robinson.......?. Putting the pin in the shaft would make forward balance easier, you could use more heavy hardwoods especially in the joint area b/c of the changed weight distribution.

Not to mention I would rather burn that shaft in the fire and have to buy a new one, or built whatever as opposed to going try and take the pin out of some super $$$ cue that you make. What are your views on the joint pins location, pros and cons of butt or shaft placement??? Do you know the origins and why?

G.G.
 
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Whether the pin is in the shaft or in the handle, makes no difference as far as wght. distribution. Once the cue is connected, you have equal parts of the pin in each, regardless of which component the pin is set into.

Not to question what you think Burton Spain was famous for, but he was one of several builders who set the pin in the shaft. To me anyway, Mr. Spain was more noted for his point work and the fact that he built forearms for Balabushka.

I'll be honest to say that I don't know the reasoning of the builders before my time. They pioneered the 2 pc. cue and it's too late for me to get inside their heads now. The evolution of the 2 pc. cue was done with a lot of trial & error. The evolution continues today and for the most part is still done by trial & error, though advanced engineering makes the results a little more predictable.

I'm blessed with a mind that allows me to speculate. Sometimes I even get it right, Lol.
Here's my take on the matter, as I think that's what you're really asking for.
The 14 thread became quite popular back in those days (God only knows why).
The 14 thread requires an insert. That insert is 7/16" in diameter (some of the imports are closer to 1/2").
The stainless steel joint collar was also popularized back then. The ss collar has a 5/8" thrd. and sits on a 5/8" tenon. The minor diameter of the 5/8" thread, depending on pitch, is in the 9/16" range. Installing a 7/16" diameter insert in a tenon with a minor thread diameter of 9/16" leaves a wall thickness of approx. 1/16"(.0625") per side to support both a ss jnt. collar and a 7/16" dia. insert. There's not a lot of meat left and too many shear points.
By moving the insert to the shaft, the wall thickness btwn. the pin (in the handle) and the ss collar grew to approx. 1/8" (per side). Substantially stronger.

The shafts at that time were probably closer to 7/8" diameter at the joint.
7/8" - 7/16" = 7/16" ( divided by 2 = 7/32" or .21875" per side). That's still a lot of meat, so there were advantages to moving the insert. Now, install a phenolic joint collar on the shaft and the strength in that area is significantly magnified. Just be mindful to not have the collar end at the area of the bottom of the insert and you've eliminated another shear point.

Just to briefly retouch the subject of the tenon on the handle supporting the joint collar, the evolution continues. Thin wall ss collars have been developed that now have a 3/4" internal diameter (id). Some are even sleeved over phenolic.

I hope that I have answered your questions to your satisfaction and please forgive me if I tend to come-off a little strong in my writings. At my age, I find I'm becoming a little more set in my ways and the things that I believe. I guess I'm done evolving.
 
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