Changing the Rules During the Season...

[Lance Link]

Should league rules be changed during the season ?

A new 'power average' system was utilized this season. It basically takes your opponent's points and factors that into your average (the less balls your opponent makes, the higher your average goes).

Early on, there was a minor issue with 'sandbagging'. There was one player on one of the teams that would make the minimum balls they needed to (to win the round), then 'lose the game' intentionally. In one instance, this player made thier required balls, and promptly played a straight in shot on the eight because they 'didn't want thier average to go up'.

To combat the problem, the LO put a 'bottom out' average on the majority of the players. That might have been ok if that had been implemented at the start of the season.

But the handicap fluctuation earlier in the season caused quite a few teams to give considerably more handicap points to teams that now have a 'bottom out'. In some cases, those 'bottom out' averages are higher than the 'real averages' from early in the season.
For instance, prior to the 'bottom out', one player's average was as low as 4.5. With the 'bottom out' in effect, that same player's average now cannot drop below a 7.
That's a minimum 2.5 ball swing !!! And when you have three or four players like that on the same team, now you're talkin' 10 balls... that's an entire game !!!
And these are players that have been in the league for quite some time. The majority of these players are more than capable of breaking & running racks. It's not as if they're 'unknowns'.
Essentially, the better players (prior to the 'bottom out') had averages WELL below thier capabilities (i.e. an established "9" shooting as a "7" on paper).

So the teams that have previously played with no 'bottom out' have been hit pretty hard, not being able to overcome the obscene and unbalanced handicaps. For instance, there's one high-caliber team that in previous seasons normally gives the lower skilled teams 6 to 9 balls per round.
With this new handicap system, the lower skilled team was GIVING the high-caliber team 7 balls per round !!! The lower skilled team was annihilated !!! They didn't stand a chance. They would have needed to shoot WAY over thier heads to walk away with a win.

So here's the question...

Should the handicap system be changed DURING the season... or is it better to simply 'let it play out', so that every team has, in effect, played under the same (handicap) conditions ?

 

[LeagueGuy]

Should league rules be changed during the season ?

A new 'power average' system was utilized this season. It basically takes your opponent's points and factors that into your average (the less balls your opponent makes, the higher your average goes).

Early on, there was a minor issue with 'sandbagging'. There was one player on one of the teams that would make the minimum balls they needed to (to win the round), then 'lose the game' intentionally. In one instance, this player made thier required balls, and promptly played a straight in shot on the eight because they 'didn't want thier average to go up'.

To combat the problem, the LO put a 'bottom out' average on the majority of the players. That might have been ok if that had been implemented at the start of the season.

But the handicap fluctuation earlier in the season caused quite a few teams to give considerably more handicap points to teams that now have a 'bottom out'. In some cases, those 'bottom out' averages are higher than the 'real averages' from early in the season.
For instance, prior to the 'bottom out', one player's average was as low as 4.5. With the 'bottom out' in effect, that same player's average now cannot drop below a 7.
That's a minimum 2.5 ball swing !!! And when you have three or four players like that on the same team, now you're talkin' 10 balls... that's an entire game !!!
And these are players that have been in the league for quite some time. The majority of these players are more than capable of breaking & running racks. It's not as if they're 'unknowns'.
Essentially, the better players (prior to the 'bottom out') had averages WELL below thier capabilities (i.e. an established "9" shooting as a "7" on paper).

So the teams that have previously played with no 'bottom out' have been hit pretty hard, not being able to overcome the obscene and unbalanced handicaps. For instance, there's one high-caliber team that in previous seasons normally gives the lower skilled teams 6 to 9 balls per round.
With this new handicap system, the lower skilled team was GIVING the high-caliber team 7 balls per round !!! The lower skilled team was annihilated !!! They didn't stand a chance. They would have needed to shoot WAY over thier heads to walk away with a win.

So here's the question...

Should the handicap system be changed DURING the season... or is it better to simply 'let it play out', so that every team has, in effect, played under the same (handicap) conditions ?

I do not believe rules should be changed in the middle of a session UNLESS they are communicated in a meeting where players have the ability to ask questions and have them answered. In order to implement any kind of rule change (let alone mid session) you need to get the players on side.

 

[justadub]

I think that the guy who was openly playing the system should have had his handicap raised the equivalent of two levels for being so unsportmanslike.

THAT might have put the brakes on such foolishness. For a while, till the players got sneaky again.

 

[supergreenman]

A better way of dealing with that particular instance of sandbagging would be to forfeit that players game for unsportsman like conduct.

In other words, if he loses intentionally he gets no points not just the minimum needed for his team to win a round.

As a league operator I would also be looking at team/player suspensions.

 

[cardiac kid]

Lance,

Having only "Subbed" on Monday night, I'm not in a position to comment on that situation. I can tell you the first question I ask my captain is "what do we need to win"? If its three balls, I make them first then concentrate on trying to win. If you notice my statistics on Wednesday nights, I've lost more games then ever before. My team however is doing just fine. As anchor player, I believe that is my job.

Did hear alot of gripping about averages though. They made me play as an 11 instead of a 10. Looked at the average sheet and was amazed at how "low" some good players are. When the older group ran the league our team, with the league director on it, essentially had no chance to win the league. He wanted it that way to keep the complaining down. The new operators do not seem to have the same goal. Averages seem to be too low. Perhaps a result of your original comment.

Lyn

 

[Lance Link]

Lyn, before I forget, the old man says to say hello...

Having only "Subbed" on Monday night, I'm not in a position to comment on that situation. I can tell you the first question I ask my captain is "what do we need to win"? If its three balls, I make them first then concentrate on trying to win. If you notice my statistics on Wednesday nights, I've lost more games then ever before. My team however is doing just fine. As anchor player, I believe that is my job.

You're absolutley right, Lyn. As anchor, if you have to make X balls or, in some cases, win and hold your opponent to X balls, it influences the shots/chances you take.
I've been in the same boat on some nights. Heck, I remember playing your team one night, and I needed to make 4 balls against you. And I did manage to do that. You ended up winning the game, but like you said above, I did my job that round.
But I played the game out. I didn't intentionally pocket the eight. I made every effort to win.

Did hear alot of gripping about averages though. They made me play as an 11 instead of a 10. Looked at the average sheet and was amazed at how "low" some good players are. When the older group ran the league our team, with the league director on it, essentially had no chance to win the league. He wanted it that way to keep the complaining down. The new operators do not seem to have the same goal. Averages seem to be too low. Perhaps a result of your original comment.

I've always felt that 'that team' you played on always had a chance to win it all, regardless of it's members. I can recall playoff matches when the (former) LO's team was still in contention.

Do I think the new LO's have the same goal ? That remains to be seen. I know they chose to try this new handicap system to entice players from 'that other league' into switching sides.

Going into last night, my team was in 7th place... just outside of qualifying for the playoffs. And we're not just in 7th place, we're far enough away from catching 5th or 6th place that, based on what happens in the next couple of weeks, we could very well be shut out of the possibility of even making the playoffs.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how we're giving balls to teams that are ranked considerably higher than us...

Hope all is well, Lyn.

 

[LeagueGuy]

Do I think the new LO's have the same goal ? That remains to be seen. I know they chose to try this new handicap system to entice players from 'that other league' into switching sides.

This is what bugs me about League Operators in general. Your league had to change your rules to get "other leagues players to come over". Why is your L.O. trying to steal other leagues players and not trying to recruit new players in.

I don't care what league it is (I personally play APA but enjoy BCA format as well), if you have the better product (league system) then put it out there and eventually, by word of mouth, people will come and try it out. The players will then decide.

Just my .02.

Leagueguy

 

[cardiac kid]

But I played the game out. I didn't intentionally pocket the eight. I made every effort to win.

Lance. I'm with you on that. LO should have forfeited the last game he played. It's poor sportsmanship. Period. Can I guess who it was? Who the team captain was? PM me please.

I've always felt that 'that team' you played on always had a chance to win it all, regardless of it's members. I can recall playoff matches when the (former) LO's team was still in contention.

In the old days of Pat Howey, Tony Morrison, Brian Doty, Jerry Sceusa and myself? That team nearly won the BCA Team event in Vegas. think we were 7-8 or 5-6. The team I was referring to was originally sponsored by the guy in Lyons.

Do I think the new LO's have the same goal ? That remains to be seen. I know they chose to try this new handicap system to entice players from 'that other league' into switching sides.

Great guess. After looking at the standings and results, don't ever remember the league being so close though. Way too many teams with winning records. Eight out of eleven? Then theres the last three. Oh well.

Going into last night, my team was in 7th place... just outside of qualifying for the playoffs. And we're not just in 7th place, we're far enough away from catching 5th or 6th place that, based on what happens in the next couple of weeks, we could very well be shut out of the possibility of even making the playoffs.

See what you mean. Good luck the rest of the season. Don't give up. You never know.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how we're giving balls to teams that are ranked considerably higher than us...

My thoughts are reviewing each teams performance at the halfway point. If someone is too good or too bad, changes should be made.

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

This is what bugs me about League Operators in general. Your league had to change your rules to get "other leagues players to come over". Why is your L.O. trying to steal other leagues players and not trying to recruit new players in.

I don't care what league it is (I personally play APA but enjoy BCA format as well), if you have the better product (league system) then put it out there and eventually, by word of mouth, people will come and try it out. The players will then decide.

Just my .02.

Leagueguy

You are correct. However, there are unmentioned players in Rochester's equation. There are two independent league operators. Their M.O. is to do just that. Recruit players from other leagues. I don't agree but it happens. Some players love one of the LO's (he's a nice guy). Some hate him (missing payouts). The other LO has a unique play structure. Strict enforcement of the rules is too soft a term. Every facet of the game is controlled by the LO. Then you have the APA and BCAPL. Sadly, in my view, only the APA is growing. The other three have stagnated. Same number of teams every year. Each doing what it can to "steal" a few players from the other league instead of finding and cultivating new players.

Rochester used to be a hotbed of pool. 14.1 was invented here and two the the greatest of all time, Irving Crane and Mike Sigel, lived and played here. Larry Hubbart lived and played here. We can thank him (and Terry Bell) for what is now the APA. If you view this post as an indictment of pool in Rochester, so be it! Each LO and room owner doing what they can to protect THEIR territory instead of helping each other out in a worsening economy.

Lyn

 

[Lance Link]

Lance. I'm with you on that. LO should have forfeited the last game he played. It's poor sportsmanship. Period. Can I guess who it was? Who the team captain was? PM me please.

Brother, I wish I knew. Anyone that knows is keeping tight-lipped (can't figure out why). But I do know some of the teams that it's not.

In the old days of Pat Howey, Tony Morrison, Brian Doty, Jerry Sceusa and myself? That team nearly won the BCA Team event in Vegas. think we were 7-8 or 5-6. The team I was referring to was originally sponsored by the guy in Lyons.

All I'll say about that 'guy in Lyons' is that (with all due respect, Lyn), I just have a hard time believing that he 'wanted it that way to keep the complaining down'. Instead, why not just continue to use the proven handicap system, and let the chips fall where they may ?

Great guess. After looking at the standings and results, don't ever remember the league being so close though. Way too many teams with winning records. Eight out of eleven? Then theres the last three. Oh well.

Oh, on some level I think it's evened out the playing field. My concern (gripe ?) is that this new average system was changed mid-season. That sort of skewed the earlier games, and could have very well changed the final outcome for playoff teams.
One of those early weeks (prior to the 'bottom out'), we gave team X 19 balls per round. Shortly after the 'bottom out' was enforced, a higher caliber team played team X and only gave them 7 balls per round. BIG difference...

See what you mean. Good luck the rest of the season. Don't give up. You never know.

No, we're not gonna count ourselves out until it's mathmatically impossible for us to get in. And even then, with the teams we're playing the final weeks, we can still affect the rankings of the ones going into the playoffs.

My thoughts are reviewing each teams performance at the halfway point. If someone is too good or too bad, changes should be made.

Lyn

Exactly.

I can remember when team captains used to meet at the start of each season (usually at the VFW, the drinks were cheap). Each captain, armed with a list of the upcoming season's players (and previous averages, if available), would review that list and jot down who they thought should be higher/lower than thier average.
When the meeting commenced, there would be a brief discussion about payouts, dues and banquet suggestions. Then began the tedious task of reading through the afforementioned list aloud, during which team captains would express thier input regarding each particular person's average.

"Ok... Joe Abernathy... His average is an 8..."
"I think he should be a 9"
"Yeah, I saw him shoot lights out when he subbed for _______ one night."
"Maybe he should have a bottom out of 8, and we'll keep an eye on it"
"Ok, that works."
"We play that team next week. I'lll let you guys know how he shoots."
"Ok... Joe Abernathy won't go below an 8..."

"Now we're on to Tommy Adams...", and the cycle would start again...

But at the end of those nights, each captain/representative walked away feeling that they had the chance to express thier input regarding some player's averages and abilities. And the majority of the time, thier input was applied to that player (or at least noted for future reference).

Now it's about finding the 'latest and greatest' average system, when in fact there was really nothing wrong with the original.

Sure, the old system had a few bugs, and every now and then one or two guys sneaked through with a lower average for a week or two.
And those would be addressed by the original league operators upon thier discovery...

"Hey, how come you bumped Joe up to a 9 ?"
"Because we both know Joe's not an 8."
"Oh... Ok. That's fair..."

And that was the way it would be.

Ah, the good ole' days...

 

[Lance Link]

I can remember when team captains used to meet at the start of each season (usually at the VFW, the drinks were cheap). Each captain, armed with a list of the upcoming season's players (and previous averages, if available), would review that list and jot down who they thought should be higher/lower than thier average.
When the meeting commenced, there would be a brief discussion about payouts, dues and banquet suggestions. Then began the tedious task of reading through the afforementioned list aloud, during which team captains would express thier input regarding each particular person's average.

"Ok... Joe Abernathy... His average is an 8..."
"I think he should be a 9"
"Yeah, I saw him shoot lights out when he subbed for _______ one night."
"Maybe he should have a bottom out of 8, and we'll keep an eye on it"
"Ok, that works."
"We play that team next week. I'lll let you guys know how he shoots."
"Ok... Joe Abernathy won't go below an 8..."

"Now we're on to Tommy Adams...", and the cycle would start again...

But at the end of those nights, each captain/representative walked away feeling that they had the chance to express thier input regarding some player's averages and abilities. And the majority of the time, thier input was applied to that player (or at least noted for future reference).

Now it's about finding the 'latest and greatest' average system, when in fact there was really nothing wrong with the original.

Sure, the old system had a few bugs, and every now and then one or two guys sneaked through with a lower average for a week or two.
And those would be addressed by the original league operators upon thier discovery...

"Hey, how come you bumped Joe up to a 9 ?"
"Because we both know Joe's not an 8."
"Oh... Ok. That's fair..."

And that was the way it would be.

Ah, the good ole' days...

I also remember sitting next to seasoned team captains at some of these meetings.
At my first captain's meeting, we reached the first player on my team (and the list went by first names, lol), his average was a 7.5. Everyone spoke up with, "Oh, he should be an 8 or 8.5".
I retorted with, "No, he should be a 9".
"Whose team does he play on ?"
And I immediately answered, "Mine."
Funny, the room got kinda quiet for a couple seconds...
"Ok, then... We'll make him a 9. His average can't go below that."

Following that, one captain in particular turned to me and said, "You're not getting it. You wanna try to get your guys' averages lower, and get everyone elses bumped up."
I turned to him and said, "It's about making sure each player has an accurate average, right ? Shouldn't matter which team they play on."
I don't know if that captain was testing me or not, but in the years following, that same captain never questioned any of my teams averages, or a good/bad hit when we played. The bulls*** factor was non-existent when we played his team, and the majority of the other teams in the league.

Nowadays every player seems to be trying to 'sandbag', 'sneak one by' or (my favorite) 'hit 'em hard so you can't tell which ball was hit first'.

I was always taught to win the game honestly. If you commit a foul, call it on yourself. That's where I come from...

 

[LeagueGuy]

You are correct. However, there are unmentioned players in Rochester's equation. There are two independent league operators. Their M.O. is to do just that. Recruit players from other leagues. I don't agree but it happens. Some players love one of the LO's (he's a nice guy). Some hate him (missing payouts). The other LO has a unique play structure. Strict enforcement of the rules is too soft a term. Every facet of the game is controlled by the LO. Then you have the APA and BCAPL. Sadly, in my view, only the APA is growing. The other three have stagnated. Same number of teams every year. Each doing what it can to "steal" a few players from the other league instead of finding and cultivating new players.

Rochester used to be a hotbed of pool. 14.1 was invented here and two the the greatest of all time, Irving Crane and Mike Sigel, lived and played here. Larry Hubbart lived and played here. We can thank him (and Terry Bell) for what is now the APA. If you view this post as an indictment of pool in Rochester, so be it! Each LO and room owner doing what they can to protect THEIR territory instead of helping each other out in a worsening economy.

Lyn

Lyn, Thanks for the reply. My post was not directed at the Rochester area alone. It was more a statement about leagues in general. The fact that you have 4 or more leagues to choose from is a great thing, as long as the player base is their to support them.

My area has always been thought to be big enough to support 2 well run leagues. We used to have APA and ACS/BCA. The APA LO did a lousy job and TAP came in and thier M.O. was to recruit the APA players (they brought almost no new players in). The ACS/BCA folded as the same teams won year after year. A few years ago, a new APA LO took over (a couple) and they have managed to take our league from 25 teams to over 70. The TAP has gone from about 45 to 35. The APA grew by recruiting new players and that has been great for the area (not to mention thier business). Some players have crossed over but not as a result of the APA targeting those players.

I just hate seeing leagues preying off one another when they should all be focused on growing the game.

Just my opinion.

Leagueguy