Consistency of APA Ratings

It's my understanding that you cannot be "locked in", why would they want to?
I think that at times, because of lack of movement you may seem "locked in" but I believe
at the top end of the spectrum movement becomes harder to achieve, the skill levels seem further apart.

It's also my understanding that if a player should happen to develop some sort of physical impairment or some other condition that their skill level can be adjusted to what that
impairment might allow.
There was a player here a few years ago, smooth stroke, played really good position and speed S/L 6 well on his way to becoming a a solid 7, he developed
Parkinson's and his skills deteriorated, he was never rated above a 5 after that.

Perhaps APA Operator will chime in here, if he can

Well, since you invited me, how can I say no? :cool:

There really isn't much that hasn't already been said by others in this thread. Back when I started, more than 20 years ago, there were significant discrepancies between APA areas. But over the years our knowledge, tools, practices, and training have all improved significantly, so it's way better now than it was then. This interweb thing has us all super-connected now too, so that helps.

Most differences today from area to area are due to one or more of three things. First, scorekeeping. The defense has been mentioned here and it's important. Those areas where it's drilled into the teams tend to have the most accurate skill levels. I tell my players "95% of the defensive shots you mark won't affect the player's skill level, but if you don't mark them 5% of the players you play will be under-rated."

Second is the vigilance of the league operator. We are all supposed to review the skill levels of all of our players weekly. Most of us do, and we all do it better than we used to, but with over 300 operators there will be some differences in the scrutiny. Any operator who tells you it's all software is either lying to you or not doing their job. There is no system in the world (NONE) that can be 100% correct without some subjectivity. Whether that's players who cheat or just can't be quantified mathematically for whatever reason, the review is critical and should be done locally, not by someone halfway across the country who doesn't know anyone in the local area. But again, getting everyone to do it exactly the same way is pretty much impossible too. Skippy was right, we can raise a skill level above what the software says it should be, but we can't lower it without getting approval from the national office.

Third is simple perception. Nearly every league operator hears from their members that players from other areas are rated lower than they are. The fact of the matter is that you know your own game and that of the people you play frequently way better than someone you rarely see, and the impressive parts of a stranger's game stick in your mind. I have been part of the Observer program at national events. Observers don't know the skill levels of the players they watch, and for the most part the observations come in right on the money, or maybe one higher or lower, depending on whether the player played a good match. Occasionally someone seems way off, and we do our best to find those people, but it's a very low percentage. However, like I tell my players, whenever you encounter those people at a national event, they are always from somewhere else, because pretty much everyone there is from somewhere else.
 
Well, since you invited me, how can I say no? :cool:

There really isn't much that hasn't already been said by others in this thread. Back when I started, more than 20 years ago, there were significant discrepancies between APA areas. But over the years our knowledge, tools, practices, and training have all improved significantly, so it's way better now than it was then. This interweb thing has us all super-connected now too, so that helps.

Most differences today from area to area are due to one or more of three things. First, scorekeeping. The defense has been mentioned here and it's important. Those areas where it's drilled into the teams tend to have the most accurate skill levels. I tell my players "95% of the defensive shots you mark won't affect the player's skill level, but if you don't mark them 5% of the players you play will be under-rated."

Second is the vigilance of the league operator. We are all supposed to review the skill levels of all of our players weekly. Most of us do, and we all do it better than we used to, but with over 300 operators there will be some differences in the scrutiny. Any operator who tells you it's all software is either lying to you or not doing their job. There is no system in the world (NONE) that can be 100% correct without some subjectivity. Whether that's players who cheat or just can't be quantified mathematically for whatever reason, the review is critical and should be done locally, not by someone halfway across the country who doesn't know anyone in the local area. But again, getting everyone to do it exactly the same way is pretty much impossible too. Skippy was right, we can raise a skill level above what the software says it should be, but we can't lower it without getting approval from the national office.

Third is simple perception. Nearly every league operator hears from their members that players from other areas are rated lower than they are. The fact of the matter is that you know your own game and that of the people you play frequently way better than someone you rarely see, and the impressive parts of a stranger's game stick in your mind. I have been part of the Observer program at national events. Observers don't know the skill levels of the players they watch, and for the most part the observations come in right on the money, or maybe one higher or lower, depending on whether the player played a good match. Occasionally someone seems way off, and we do our best to find those people, but it's a very low percentage. However, like I tell my players, whenever you encounter those people at a national event, they are always from somewhere else, because pretty much everyone there is from somewhere else.

One thing you did not mention....unless I missed it was about lo's locking handicaps

My lo happens to lock your local handicap to whatever your you happen to qualify for a regional or higher for.

Correct me if I am wrong.....i know your national handicap is locked but I thought your local handicap was not.
 
Perhaps APA Operator will chime in here, if he can

How many league ops do you think are regular contributors to AZB, let alone know about these forums at all?

BlackCat (?) might be the only one I remember.
 
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I tell my players "95% of the defensive shots you mark won't affect the player's skill level, but if you don't mark them 5% of the players you play will be under-rated."

Is there an APA statistical study to back this up? Just curious. I suspect that it's MUCH MUCH higher than 5% that are under-rated due to bad scorekeeping.

I've played in an 10 team division in which 4 to 5 teams MARK ZERO shots all night. 1 to 3 teams randomly mark a few, usually for high ranks only. 1 or 2 PUNITIVELY mark only for opposing players. I was the only guy keeping accurate, honest score.

In situations like that - which are VERY common - there's a 40% chance each night that two ZERO teams meet and fail to mark ANY defense for 20 players. TWENTY PLAYERS out of 80 are affected by bad scorekeeping. Much higher than 5%.

Also, my roster had players that only went UP, very rarely did they drop. That's because their 10 best scores took a long time to clear the 20 game sampling interval when the Defense is properly marked.
 
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How many league ops do you think are regular contributors to AZB, let alone know about these forums at all?

BlackCat (?) might be the only one I remember.

I'm sure there are at least a few, but only one with the handle "APA Operator", I'm sure there are at least a couple of former LO's as well, Division Reps, and countless players.

As an aside, I know that it's sometimes "The New Black" to hate on your LO (in which ever league you play in) because you feel like they are taking time to single out you and your team and I used to be just like that. But I came to realize that I'm really just another player and our LO doesn't really have the time or the inclination to single me out for anything that I didn't earn. Our LO and I don't always see eye to eye, but our LO has my respect and admiration. We are very fortunate to have the LO that we have and looking back at my time as an APA player I can't say that I've ever been treated unfairly. I don't think I'd ever want their job, but I'm glad they are the one with it.
 
I'm sure there are at least a few, but only one with the handle "APA Operator", I'm sure there are at least a couple of former LO's as well, Division Reps, and countless players.

As an aside, I know that it's sometimes "The New Black" to hate on your LO (in which ever league you play in) because you feel like they are taking time to single out you and your team and I used to be just like that. But I came to realize that I'm really just another player and our LO doesn't really have the time or the inclination to single me out for anything that I didn't earn. Our LO and I don't always see eye to eye, but our LO has my respect and admiration. We are very fortunate to have the LO that we have and looking back at my time as an APA player I can't say that I've ever been treated unfairly. I don't think I'd ever want their job, but I'm glad they are the one with it.

My thoughts exactly.I once thought he had it out for me and my team also lol but like you I finally realized I am just another player in his franchise and have never given him a reason to have it out against me or any team I play on.

As a matter of fact I play on 2 teams with my lo

My lo is aware of this forum. I have no idea if he has ever posted or how often he lurks on here.
 
One thing you did not mention....unless I missed it was about lo's locking handicaps

My lo happens to lock your local handicap to whatever your you happen to qualify for a regional or higher for.

Correct me if I am wrong.....i know your national handicap is locked but I thought your local handicap was not.

I think you misunderstand the use of the word "National" in "National Lowest Attainable". It is your lowest attainable skill level, and is set by the National office. You can't be lower than that anywhere, locally, regionally, or nationally.
 
Is there an APA statistical study to back this up? Just curious. I suspect that it's MUCH MUCH higher than 5% that are under-rated due to bad scorekeeping.

I've played in an 10 team division in which 4 to 5 teams MARK ZERO shots all night. 1 to 3 teams randomly mark a few, usually for high ranks only. 1 or 2 PUNITIVELY mark only for opposing players. I was the only guy keeping accurate, honest score.

In situations like that - which are VERY common - there's a 40% chance each night that two ZERO teams meet and fail to mark ANY defense for 20 players. TWENTY PLAYERS out of 80 are affected by bad scorekeeping. Much higher than 5%.

Also, my roster had players that only went UP, very rarely did they drop. That's because their 10 best scores took a long time to clear the 20 game sampling interval when the Defense is properly marked.

No study, just a ballpark number to make a point. But it's intended to mean that if NOBODY marks defense for ANYONE, 1 out of 20 will be underrated. In your example, at some point everyone has some defensive shots marked. And believe it or not, we know who marks excessive defense - we call it "pencil whipping".
 
You say several incorrect things. I was a 2 at one point and I have a male friend that is currently a 2, so males are not limited to only be as low as a 3.


I'm not sure where you are playing but "at the National Championships males are not allowed to play as skill level 2, therefore most league operators do not allow men to play at level 2." That's in our league by laws.
 
pro's

You say several incorrect things. I am on the fence about SL8's but the APA is an amateur league that Pros can't play in. I know there are 7's whom average very close to 0 innings for matches and then some that do not so.....

Not true. It depends on how you define a pro. Many players in the APA have competed and won prize money at professional tournaments (Joss or others) They may not be ranked in the top 20 but they are pros. They can, have competed at the professional level and have been successful. Maybe not enough to quit their daytime job...
 
new pt system

You say several incorrect things. I was a 2 at one point

The 3,2,1,0 point system has nothing to do with ratings. It is to discourage people from sandbagging by encouraging the shooters to try to win as best as possible to maximize their team points.

Although it may discourage sandbagging in some ways. Sandbaggers don't want to get shut out (give up 3 points) It certainly does make the importance of having strong lower skilled players on a team. It's difficult in the new system for a 5, 6 or 7 to shut out an opponent of equal skill level to earn 3 points. It's very common for a 3 to beat an opponent on any given night 2 straight and earn 3 points. The new system encourages teams to look for good lower skilled level players. It's understandable. It's a business. The bead and butter of the league is the 2,3 an 4.
 
My observation

??? Our APA team Captain would NEVER allow any sandbagging. Like the rule book says, dont worry about the handicap, go shoot your best. Or something like that. Everyone on our team shoots their very best every single stroke and night. Sandbagging would be a waste of our time and talents and goes against our ethics in pool and beyond. We also are ridiculously accurate with our score keeping. Evidently not all think like this.
 
??? Our APA team Captain would NEVER allow any sandbagging. Like the rule book says, dont worry about the handicap, go shoot your best. Or something like that. Everyone on our team shoots their very best every single stroke and night. Sandbagging would be a waste of our time and talents and goes against our ethics in pool and beyond. We also are ridiculously accurate with our score keeping. Evidently not all think like this.

I'm in my first season of league play (8ball+9ball at a pool hall) and I'm finding that most people ignore marking defensive shots. Rarely, someone will announce a defensive shot after their shot, but generally they do so only to their own team's scorekeeper. I've played a couple matches where I shot 3-5 defensive shots and neither scorekeeper marked any.

The more worrisome aspect of this is that I aspire to be regionally competitive. If people aren't making shots correctly it is clear they aren't interested in the same things I am. Fortunately, my team captain has a competitive mindset and is a nice fella who wants to win.

So, I'm going to have to start announcing defensive shots so that competition outside my division is fair for everyone. I'm still green and having to think about another thing during competition is frustrating.
 
I'm in my first season of league play (8ball+9ball at a pool hall) and I'm finding that most people ignore marking defensive shots. Rarely, someone will announce a defensive shot after their shot, but generally they do so only to their own team's scorekeeper. I've played a couple matches where I shot 3-5 defensive shots and neither scorekeeper marked any.

The more worrisome aspect of this is that I aspire to be regionally competitive. If people aren't making shots correctly it is clear they aren't interested in the same things I am. Fortunately, my team captain has a competitive mindset and is a nice fella who wants to win.

So, I'm going to have to start announcing defensive shots so that competition outside my division is fair for everyone. I'm still green and having to think about another thing during competition is frustrating.
I would suggest to not worry about it during your match. After your match is completed is a good time to go to each scorekeeper and for example say, I had three defense of shots that need to be marked.
 
I am confused about why a league which only has 7 or so discrete levels, bothers to (attempt to) collect data on the inning level. I would think that a 100 games or so would be ample to establish 7 levels.

FargoRate has 100 times as many levels, and doesn't collect data at that granularity.

Thank you kindly.
 
I am confused about why a league which only has 7 or so discrete levels, bothers to (attempt to) collect data on the inning level. I would think that a 100 games or so would be ample to establish 7 levels.

FargoRate has 100 times as many levels, and doesn't collect data at that granularity.

Thank you kindly.

I couldn't agree more; scoring per inning is a pain and isn't even accurate. Waste of effort.
 
I am confused about why a league which only has 7 or so discrete levels, bothers to (attempt to) collect data on the inning level. I would think that a 100 games or so would be ample to establish 7 levels.

FargoRate has 100 times as many levels, and doesn't collect data at that granularity.

Thank you kindly.

I think it would be great if the APA won/loss records were dumped into Fargo rate somehow. I strongly doubt that would ever happen as the APA would lose what separates them from their competitors. And since they are the big dog in amateur pool why would they do that?

I wish the BCA had a presence in my area. I would join in a heartbeat.
 
You say several incorrect things. I was a 2 at one point and I have a male friend that is currently a 2, so males are not limited to only be as low as a 3.


I'm not sure where you are playing but "at the National Championships males are not allowed to play as skill level 2, therefore most league operators do not allow men to play at level 2." That's in our league by laws.

Most LO's? I understand there are more then 300 LO's in The APA, how many have you talked to? And what might happen to be in your leagues local rules, like "No male S/L 2's" isn't necessarily applicable to the rules on the national level. While it may be in the HLT rules, it isn't in the rules for regular weekly play up through local team championship play.
The APA does allow male S/L 2's (and 1's) on the local level.
 
I strongly doubt that would ever happen as the APA would lose what separates them from their competitors. And since they are the big dog in amateur pool why would they do that?

I wish the BCA had a presence in my area. I would join in a heartbeat.

It sounds like what separates them from their competitors, is that they are present in more locales. Which is a huge advantage. I doubt many people care about how they calculate rankings.

Thank you kindly.
 
It sounds like what separates them from their competitors, is that they are present in more locales. Which is a huge advantage. I doubt many people care about how they calculate rankings.

Thank you kindly.

I'm sure you're right. Why would people care what system the APA uses.

But I will bet that the APA and their franchise owners do. Why would they give up a system that differentiates them from the competition? Their competitors would need to take a huge bite out of their membership before they would start to consider changes. At least that's how I see it.
 
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