Constructive criticism- IPT coverage

chrstc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello,
I realise that most of you haven't yet seen any of the matches from this tournament and so you'll probably not want to comment but most of us who have seen them on Eurosport have been a little disappointed I think it's fair to say.

The major problem is that, although the players clearly have no trouble with them at all, the balls are very hard to distinguish from each other on camera. Unlike the Aramith TV set which is tried and tested. The IPT set uses a pinkish-purple carpet and this manages to cast a glow over the table and the balls etc and make everything look vaguely purple. Very weird! I know the other tables aren't on this carpet but the 2 TV tables are. Also the overhead camera seems to have totally different contrast settings to the main one so when the coverage switches between views it's almost as if you're looking at a different table! The arena looks beautiful but the results aren't half as impressive (at least on Eurosport and they use the same IPT camera crew not one of their own) as the Matchroom event coverage for example. That carpet or floor covering needs to go! At the moment the 3 and 5 and their respective stripes are hard to distinguish from each other and the 6 and the 8 are very hard to pick out too. It's really frustrating when you think a player is out of line but in fact you've just mixed the balls up and they're perfectly in position! In fact the floor and lighting combination even makes the table look like it's made of purpleheart or something!

One more problem with the Eurosport coverage is that they don't give any updates on the scores in the other matches either apart from the other TV table. A scrolling results service at the bottom of the screen would be great. However I'm sure this is a Eurosport-only problem and that other channels will do a much better job of this and so I'm not blaming the IPT obviously!

The only other problem I see is the live scoring on the website. I don't know whether you've all seen the live scoring used for the Eurotour events and the European Championship but that's first class. A huge rolling scoreboard that is updated every couple of minutes at the most and keeps you up to date with all the matches currently being played. Although it's nice to have the extra IPT stats wouldn't it be better to just have a live scoreboard and then have the stats filled in later as they're not so "crucial".

Right I know I've probably opened a can of worms here! I'm not trying to criticise the IPT unfairly- I'm just trying to say how they could improve the spectator/fan experience very easily. Just change that carpet as it plays havoc with the pictures and a real live scoreboard on the website would be a massive improvement in my opinion.

Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
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Their just trying it over there to get all the kinks out before we get it in the USA.:eek: :D Johnnyt
 
chrstc said:
Hello,
I realise that most of you haven't yet seen any of the matches from this tournament and so you'll probably not want to comment but most of us who have seen them on Eurosport have been a little disappointed I think it's fair to say.

The major problem is that, although the players clearly have no trouble with them at all, the balls are very hard to distinguish from each other on camera. Unlike the Aramith TV set which is tried and tested. The IPT set uses a pinkish-purple carpet and this manages to cast a glow over the table and the balls etc and make everything look vaguely purple. Very weird! I know the other tables aren't on this carpet but the 2 TV tables are. Also the overhead camera seems to have totally different contrast settings o the main one so when the coverage switches between views it's almost as if you're looking at a different table! The arena looks beautiful but the results aren't half as impressive (at least on Eurosport and they use the same IPT crew not one of their own) as the Matchroom event coverage for example. That carpet or floor covering needs to go! At the moment the 3,4 and 5 and their respective stripes are hard to distinguish from each other and the 6 and the 8 are very hard to pick out too. It's really frustrating when you think a player is out of line but in fact you've just mixed the balls up and they're perfectly in position! In fact the floor and lighting combination even makes the table look like it's made of purpleheart or something!

One more problem with the Eurosport coverage is that they don't give any updates on the scores in the other matches either apart from the other TV table. A scrolling results service at the bottom of the screen would be great. However I'm sure this is a Eurosport-only problem and that other channels will do a much better job of this and so I'm not blaming the IPT obviously!

The only other problem I see is the live scoring on the website. I don't know whether you've all seen the live scoring used for the Eurotour events and the European Championship but that's first class. A huge rolling scoreboard that is updated every couple of minutes at the most and keeps you up to date with all the matches currently being played. Although it's nice to have the extra IPT stats wouldn't it be better to just have a live scoreboard and then have the stats filled in later as they're not so "crucial".

Right I know I've probably opened a can of worms here! I'm not trying to criticise the IPT unfairly- I'm just trying to say how they could improve the spectator/fan experience very easily. Just change that carpet as it plays havoc with the pictures and a real live scoreboard on the website would be a massive improvement in my opinion.

Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).

IPT Hater!!!! :D

Just kidding I know what you mean but you're not really allowed to do constructive around here - watch out for Jake and a few others ;)
 
Hello,
Yeah maybe you're right! Still, you guys have to put up with the website too don't you! They could change that and help everyone out!!

Thanks for reading,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
TheOne said:
IPT Hater!!!! :D

Just kidding I know what you mean but you're not really allowed to do constructive around here - watch out for Jake and a few others ;)

Hi,
Yeah, I have to admit that's what I was worried about! I've tried to be as fair as I possibly can but I did think long and hard about whether I should post the thread or not.

Thanks alot,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
chrstc said:
Hi,
Yeah, I have to admit that's what I was worried about! I've tried to be as fair as I possibly can but I did think long and hard about whether I should post the thread or not.

Thanks alot,
Chris (Chrstc).

No worries, have to agree about the website, its been one of their biggest successes to date but from a usability point of view its not very good, there's been no live updates and you can only view one group at a time which is very frustrating. Sadly I can't get Eurosport on freeview Grrrr, will get to see it this weekend though.

I guess Deno pulling out at the airport didn't help them much though.
 
Hi again,
Yes I agree the website is generally very good isn't it but as you yourself know the European Championship/Eurotour site is fantastic as far as live scoring goes isn't it. Really easy to keep track of all of your favourite players at the same time. The scoreboard just opens in a new window and away you go!

Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
chrstc said:
Hello,
Also the overhead camera seems to have totally different contrast settings to the main one so when the coverage switches between views it's almost as if you're looking at a different table!
(Chrstc).

I don't think there is a camera overhead. It is a mirror with camera pointing at it. So if the mirror is a bit dark then you will get different shades from the others. Also the announcer/s seem to have no knowledge of the pool world. It's as if only Europe and USA are playing. He always mentions Ralph as 16/1 to win the tournament, and Sigel wins over Jones. And the camera always showing European players. Don't get me wrong, but I also want to see how the Asians are doing against other nations. Maybe when it is down to last stretch they will show the others. I hope they won't cut the broadcast when all Europeans are out.
 
Hi,
Well during commentary last night they talked about an "overhead camera" but I don't know. That view/angle certainly could do with being edited, though, however it is that they get it!

I agree it would be nice to see how the other nations are getting on but Eurosport don't set the TV table schedule- that's down to the IPT. Bustamante vs Reyes is one of the featured matches tonight though so that should be great.

As for not needing updates- well I have to disagree totally there of course! I want to find out how all my fav. players are doing throughout the event whether they win or whether they don't even come close. That's the appeal of a big tournament with such a high-class field. There are no dead-certs at all.

The IPT has been promoted brilliantly and has really caught the imagination of most pool fans but then it's very frustrating once the events start that it's impossible to keep up to date with results. Matchroom sport are just as bad with the WPC. They could both learn a lot from the Eurotour site in that respect I believe.

Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
chrstc said:
Hello,
!

One more problem with the Eurosport coverage is that they don't give any updates on the scores in the other matches either apart from the other TV table. A scrolling results service at the bottom of the screen would be great. However I'm sure this is a Eurosport-only problem and that other channels will do a much better job of this and so I'm not blaming the IPT obviously!

The only other problem I see is the live scoring on the website. I don't know whether you've all seen the live scoring used for the Eurotour events and the European Championship but that's first class. A huge rolling scoreboard that is updated every couple of minutes at the most and keeps you up to date with all the matches currently being played. Although it's nice to have the extra IPT stats wouldn't it be better to just have a live scoreboard and then have the stats filled in later as they're not so "crucial".


Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).


You have to understand one important point. Never in the history of pool have we in the USA ever experienced receiving so much information as is being given to us in this tournament.

I believe that Europe uses the GLI system. But it was found to be too complicated for us stupid Americans.

The IPT website is really a masterpiece of information. Well layed out and very accurate.

I find being able to go from scoresheet to scoresheet gives me an abundant amount of information. More than my small mind can comprehend. The person who is updating the website and the scores sure is doing a great job.

Most likely we will see game by game updates in the final round. Doing that in the beginning would sure be a monumental task. American pool players have trouble reporting the won/loss score after a match. They just go to the scorekeeper and say I won or I lost. We have to retrain them.

I wonder how much money has been spent by the IPT to create their website and to run their website and to feed information into it during the tournament. The expense is probably more than 80% of pool players make in a year.

Jake
 
Hi,
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree!
As I said above I'm perfectly happy to wait for the stats- I don't expect them to have statisticians working constantly but it certainly wouldn't be beyond them to update after each game of each match. Let's face it the Eurotour events run on a much, much smaller budget than the IPT and yet the live scoring is actually live! As has been said elsewhere there's not much point claiming "live coverage" if it's only updated hours after the matches have finished!

We Europeans don't get GLI or anything else from the Eurotour either. Frankly I'm not that interested in all those sorts of stats anyway. Wins and losses are enough for me but the current IPT website makes it difficult to follow more than one group at once anyway. It's great to see the group by group breakdown the next day but what most people want is an accurate and up to date set of results from all the tables in play as it happens don't they?!

Thanks- I guess we just have different ideas about how we like to follow our favourite players during an event.
Chris (Chrstc).
 
chrstc said:
Hi,
Yeah, I have to admit that's what I was worried about! I've tried to be as fair as I possibly can but I did think long and hard about whether I should post the thread or not.

Thanks alot,
Chris (Chrstc).
chrstc, I say criticize away.

It's no secret that Deno reads what he we post here on this forum...I see his user name pop up at the bottom of the screen numerous times. I think the forums are the best places to get real constructive criticism on how things ought to be done.

I'd like to think that the IPT discarded the GLI system by reading the numerous critiques on this very forum. So it does appear that the IPT listens to what we folk have to say.

On another note...

I've posted this in the past, but I think it would awesome to post live CueTable (wei table) updates on their web site for the TV matches, such that us Americans who aren't fortunate enough to have TV coverage can sweat the premiere matches on a live shot by shot basis.

You only need one employee and one computer linked to the web to do this service. This person should only be familiar with the CueTable software, and pretty quick with the mouse. After each shot, the person would just modify the table layout, and upload the link to the website.

What's great about this is that you can create an archive and history of exactly how some of the matches unfolded, shot by shot.

EDIT: Heck, you don't even need an IPT employee. Anyone watching the match on TV can do this. LOL. Any volunteers? :P
 
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jsp said:
chrstc, I say criticize away.

It's no secret that Deno reads what he we post here on this forum...I see his user name pop up at the bottom of the screen numerous times. I think the forums are the best places to get real constructive criticism on how things ought to be done.

I'd like to think that the IPT discarded the GLI system by reading the numerous critiques on this very forum. So it does appear that the IPT listens to what we folk have to say.
:P

Couldn't agree more. To be fair Chris Jake is the main IPTree Hugger, there are a few others but Jake doesn't do constructive anything really.

This forum is a cheap resource for the IPT to improve, if we all followed Jakes line the IPT wouldn't have evolved like it has. And to its credit it has taken most things on board and done the right thing, hopefully with the new sponsors on board they will sort out the qualifiers and it truly will be EVERY pool players dream.
 
jsp and TheOne,
Thanks for the support. It would be great to think that this might get read by someone like Deno Andrews as I hope I haven't been too negative about anything here. I do appreciate what a huge thing the IPT is in every way and I'm sure it'll get bigger and better over time.
As for the cue table idea well, I'm sure you know a lot more about the logistics of that than I do (I've only used the program once!) so I can't really comment! Perhaps the IPT might even introduce some streaming video content like on the Eurotour site again. Before everyone groans I'm not saying the Eurotour site is perfect- far from it! In many ways the IPT website is streets ahead. It's just in the live scoring department that it is much better in my opinion.

Thanks again,
Chris (Chrstc)
 
"IPTree Hugger". If I had been sipping my morning coffee when I read that, it'd be all over my monitor right now. Bravo! :D

As far as the IPT website goes... it's good and it's not-so-good. It's very pretty, I'll say that - very clean, easy on the eyes. But I'd structure the tournament info differently. I've been doing this sort of thing the past decade (web design/development, database-driven stuff).

Let's use Group 1 as an example... and I'm just making up numbers here, to simulate matches in progress (i.e. pretending the group's not done), so don't anyone get bent on who I put what numbers next to :D ...

Group 1 (last updated 7/24/06 04:46pm)
Alex LELY (2-1, 66%)
Lou BUTERA (3-0, 85%) (ADVANCES)
Jackie BROADHURST (1-2, 40%)
Jon KUCHARO (0-3, 25%)
Jason KIRKWOOD (1-1, 55%)
Matches in progress:
Lely (5) vs Butera (7)

Something like that. So you can see at a glance, how each player's completed matches have gone, along with the win%, and then what matches are in progress in said group and, if they have the resources to keep up with the races (lots of matches going on at once, I can see how that would be tough), what the race is at that point. And, once the group is done, who advances. (I mixed up in-progress/done bits in the example. So sue me. :D) The normal "Group #" link that goes to the gridded-up info could remain as is, for more detailed info (break-and-run counts, etc).

Consistency is another nice thing to have. The first round groups all had names like "Joe BLOW" and now the second round groups are all "Blow, Joe".
 
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ScottW said:
"IPTree Hugger". If I had been sipping my morning coffee when I read that, it'd be all over my monitor right now. Bravo! :D

As far as the IPT website goes... it's good and it's not-so-good. It's very pretty, I'll say that - very clean, easy on the eyes. But I'd structure the tournament info differently. I've been doing this sort of thing the past decade (web design/development, database-driven stuff).

Let's use Group 1 as an example... and I'm just making up numbers here, to simulate matches in progress (i.e. pretending the group's not done), so don't anyone get bent on who I put what numbers next to :D ...



Something like that. So you can see at a glance, how each player's completed matches have gone, along with the win%, and then what matches are in progress in said group and, if they have the resources to keep up with the races (lots of matches going on at once, I can see how that would be tough), what the race is at that point. And, once the group is done, who advances. (I mixed up in-progress/done bits in the example. So sue me. :D) The normal "Group #" link that goes to the gridded-up info could remain as is, for more detailed info (break-and-run counts, etc).

Consistency is another nice thing to have. The first round groups all had names like "Joe BLOW" and now the second round groups are all "Blow, Joe".

I thought you'd like it Scott :)

As a fellow pro web developer I'd have to agree with most of what you've said, the golden rule they are breaking is having to go back all the time between groups. It takes 40 clicks to view all the updates!

The're should be one groups page with all the groups and basic data and you simply click for more detailed info. This way you can simply refresh one page. The problem is scott I suspect the data isn't stored in a DB, they seem to use a lot of pdf's!
 
chrstc,
It's great that you share how IPT, or whoever they're hooked up with, is doing live TV coverage. I'm sure that a lot can be improved as you've said (except ask the Venetian to replace their carpeting for the event:) ).

Here's how it's done here in the Philippines;
1. Live scoring on other matches are superimposed on the screen while the balls are being racked on the televised match.

2. or a roving camera takes live snippets on interesting matches. Stays with that match if real interesting until the rack is over.

3. The bracket results or group score, whichever is applicable, is also superimposed from time to time.

4. People, sportscasters which can be with invited players, do live commentary with telestrating at appropriate time with a sound engineer who controls the audiomix between the commentator booth and around the playing area.

What can be done for IPT, as was done for WPC, is to have a laptop for each table for the score to be keyed in by the ref or a designate. These laptaps are then in turn networked to a main for a comp program to tabulate and upload to the website's "live scoring" and running stats. Select matches also get abbreviated match action news in the website.

What I'd wish to see aside from the above is some match webcam snippets in their site. Maybe someday...
 
Hello,
I certainly like that system more than the current one myself but I would prefer a simple real time scoreboard ie

Group 1
Player A 6 Player B 7
etc etc

Group 2
Player A 5 Player B 2
etc etc

That way you can track all the groups at once and the complex stats regarding break and runs, games won percentage etc can be filled in later when they do have the time. I know you need those stats to figure out who has qualified from each group but you can still get a rough idea without them (if a player has won 4 games they're through, 2 they still have a chance etc)

As for the amount of time they'd need, well, the European Championships has at least 20 matches running at one time and they can do it so with their bigger budget and manpower I'd still think the IPT would be perefectly able to do it for 40 matches and then round up the stats at the end of each day.

Wouldn't the solution be to have a giant TV or scoreboard at the venue itself like a golf leaderboard and then just link that scoreboard to the website to provide scoring that way.

I guess it's personal choice but I'd rather have the results updated more often but with less statistics rather than perfect statistical data but an update every 2 hours!

Thanks,
Chris (Chrstc).
 
Hello bandido,
That sort of coverage sounds wonderful. What do you think about the results on the website debate yourself?
Yes, that carpeting really should go! Actually I've PM'd JAM about it as I'd love to know what it's like from a live spectator's viewpoint. It obviously doesn't bother the players but I wonder what it's like from the stands?

Thanks for explaining how the live scoring at the WPC is managed too- that answers a few questions for me!

Thanks again for your input- much appreciated,

Chris (Chrstc).
 
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