Cracked shafts

R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had a problem come up last night and I don't know if it is bad luck on the player's part or if it is something I've done.
This man has one of my cues and a month or so ago one of the shafts cracked from below the ferrule even with the tenon. My tenons are 5/8ths." by the way. Another cue repairman noticed it while putting on a tip. They asked me what might have caused it and I said that probably while shooting hard when breaking he probably miscued and unluckly had the growth rings parallell to the cue ball. I made him another shaft at a discount but last night I learned that the same thing has happened to his second original shaft.
As far as I know this has never happened to any of my shafts before but 2 shafts within a month for one person there has to be a problem some where.
I found out last night that this man uses a break stick for breaking, not one of my shafts, although he does shoot pretty hard most of the time. While watching him play last night he miscued twice in about 45 minutes.
Do you think this is just bad luck or maybe when I'm cutting my tenon I'm using a to sharply pointed tool not leaving a large enough radius or what?
Any ideas would be very greatly appreciated.
Dick
 
Your ferrule tenon is 5/8th or 5/16? :-)
Not threaded ( or capped) I would guess b/c threaded ones are at .282" or so plus the shoulder.
Did the ferrules break too? IF they split and the glue is very strong, it'd probably pull the wood apart too.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Your ferrule tenon is 5/8th or 5/16? :-)
Not threaded ( or capped) I would guess b/c threaded ones are at .282" or so plus the shoulder.
Did the ferrules break too? IF they split and the glue is very strong, it'd probably pull the wood apart too.
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Sorry about that 5/8ths. thing. The tenons are 5/16ths. non-threaded capped melomine ferrules. When installed I trim the tenon length down just a few ths. at a time so that there is very little clearance where the tenon abutts to the cap of the ferrule. I couldn't even guess how many of these ferrules I've put on this way with no trouble in the past. No the ferrules never broke. You just see where the shaft protrudes slightly out from where the shaft and ferrule join, then if you put side pressure on the ferrule you can see the crack.
Dick
 
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rhncue said:
Sorry about that 5/8ths. thing. The tenons are 5/16ths. non-threaded capped melomine ferrules. When installed I trim the tenon length down just a few ths. at a time so that there is very little clearance where the tenon abutts to the cap of the ferrule. I couldn't even guess how many of these ferrules I've put on this way with no trouble in the past. No the ferrules never broke. You just see where the shaft protrudes slightly out from where the shaft and ferrule join, then if you put side pressure on the ferrule you can see the crack.
Dick
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Is the crack run parallel with the shaft behind the shoulder, or is the tenon it'self cracked? Also is It just one crack or 2 that run side by side, like a piece of the shaft wants to split. Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
Is the crack run parallel with the shaft behind the shoulder, or is the tenon it'self cracked? Also is It just one crack or 2 that run side by side, like a piece of the shaft wants to split. Greg
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No, the tenon is not affected and the ferrule is attached solidly to it The crack runs parrallel with the shaft and it doesn't appear to be in the tenon but alongside and the crack goes all the way thru.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
No, the tenon is not affected and the ferrule is attached solidly to it The crack runs parrallel with the shaft and it doesn't appear to be in the tenon but alongside and the crack goes all the way thru.
Dick
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You sure It was'nt just a batch of wood? Did both shafts come from the same batch maybe? Do you possibly use white glue at the seam like some do for a cleaner glue line?

Seems like at a minimum, There would have been some kind of glue break down aleast at that seam, for the end grain to pop up after cracking. could happen either way though under enough stress.

The sharp corner thing may make It easier to occur, especially with a glue breakdown, not sure because, I've actually went in too deep before, past the tenon diameter, and did not split like that, the tenon was fine also, never snapped. I've salvage all kinds of tenons before, instead of replacing a tenon. so experiemented alot. You would be suprised what will actually hold up with a good glue. Sure You know that though and probably why this has you baffled Like I sometimes get with these type senerios that don't add up easy. :D

The style I've been doing lately, and think I'm starting to Like Is- this is on both threaded & non threaded- I bore a short hole toward the bottom of the ferrule just alittle larger, to accept a larger dia step tenon on the bottom of the tenon It'self, on top of that I have a very small taper on the shoulder corner I believe you were refering to with the sharp tool. I have a taper on the ferrule to except It, but instead of the usual corner relief as it's used sometimes, I fit them as precise as I can for more contact area/surface area. I do the same with the step tenon depth, and the end of the tenon face with the bottom of the cap like you mentioned, when I cap one. I try to keep My diameters down to a minimum, so I don't thinwall the ferrule on the bottom, and have enough face area where the ferule meets the shoulder face. I try to do all this in a way that does'nt cause the wedging effect I mentioned in the other thread, so the fit is key for me. If I need glue relief I get It from another source, because I don't like depending on the glue to fill the voids. I don't know if it really makes a difference, but seem to get double the compression protection, and have'nt had one split like that with this method, or even had one come back due to breakdown.

I thread most of mine now when the opertunity presents It'self, but still do both methods. I've also done It the way it sounds like your doing yours, and had no major problems either, so without close examination, It kind of has me baffled & in deep thought about It too. I don't even think I've had one I put on split like that, but had split them on the cues I broke with in the past.

If it protrudes over the ferrule & even looks slightly mushrooned at that seam, could be a compression issue. threading, and epoxing the face may help If you don't already. I know I compressed a few rings through out the whole cue, broke ferrules, split shafts, and plain broke a fews cues down breaking with them back before I threw My shoulder out with the boat of a cue I was using at the time. It was the only thing that would hold up, and I still warped the shaft on it. I'm not a really big guy or anything, not small either, just medium, so imagine there are people out there that can flat destroy a cue no matter what you do. I know I would have broke off some phelonolic tips if I had them back then, and these light weight break cues, can't even imagine. I get them for repair with the edges busted off, just got one from a female that plays league like that to do the other day.I never break with My shooting cue. learned that one the hard way. I know a few really big players in comparison, and imagine they would have no problem smashing most cues, if they really wanted to.

Wish I had a better idea of what may have caused it, and could be of more help, If I think of anything, I'll pass it on. Since you've been doing ferrules for a good while I'm sure, I got a feeling that My guess would be about the same as yours on this one, even If I saw it firsthand. Greg
 
madison bob

rhncue said:
I had a problem come up last night and I don't know if it is bad luck on the player's part or if it is something I've done.
This man has one of my cues and a month or so ago one of the shafts cracked from below the ferrule even with the tenon. My tenons are 5/8ths." by the way. Another cue repairman noticed it while putting on a tip. They asked me what might have caused it and I said that probably while shooting hard when breaking he probably miscued and unluckly had the growth rings parallell to the cue ball. I made him another shaft at a discount but last night I learned that the same thing has happened to his second original shaft.
As far as I know this has never happened to any of my shafts before but 2 shafts within a month for one person there has to be a problem some where.
I found out last night that this man uses a break stick for breaking, not one of my shafts, although he does shoot pretty hard most of the time. While watching him play last night he miscued twice in about 45 minutes.
Do you think this is just bad luck or maybe when I'm cutting my tenon I'm using a to sharply pointed tool not leaving a large enough radius or what?
Any ideas would be very greatly appreciated.
Dick
Click to expand...

dickie i bet money the old boy gets mad here and there and misses a shot and smacks the top of the cue ball are table with his ferulle i had a guy do me the same way before i found out what he was doing . it was the same type of damage you decribed.another thing if he miss cues on a draw shot he could be going under the cue ball and hitting the table putting a side load on the shaft. i only seen 3 shafts do this and all 3 were miss treated one was droped on a concrete floor right on the edge of the ferulle and the other 2 were smacked againest a ball i bet its not your doings. ask around and see if the old boy gets a little upset and likes to take it out on the table are balls i bet he does. dickie heres a good way to give the ferulle more support cut your 5/16 tenon 3/4 of a inch down from the tip end now on the last 1/4 inch make the tenon larger by .035 to.040 thousands larger this means you will have to open up the ferulle larger on that 1/4 inch down by the shaft but now if there is a side load put on the ferulle it now has a bigger base to support it and its 2 steps 1 helping the other to share the load i,ve been doing mine this way for years but i thread the first 3/4 of a inch and the last 1/4 of a inch down by the shaft is not threaded so as i thread it on it just slips over that last 1/4 of a inch doing it this way you will see when cutting the ferulle down on the lathe there will be almost no push off from the cutter because of the extra support at the base so you know if its not pushing off when its cut on the lathe then while your playing with the cue the ferulle is not flexing near as much as a single step design. it,s a little extra work but it works great. this also breaks up the grain supporting it like a extra colar. MADISON BOB CUSTOM CUES
 
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bob griffin said:
dickie i bet money the old boy gets mad here and there and misses a shot and smacks the top of the cue ball are table with his ferulle i had a guy do me the same way before i found out what he was doing . it was the same type of damage you decribed.another thing if he miss cues on a draw shot he could be going under the cue ball and hitting the table putting a side load on the shaft. i only seen 3 shafts do this and all 3 were miss treated one was droped on a concrete floor right on the edge of the ferulle and the other 2 were smacked againest a ball i bet its not your doings. ask around and see if the old boy gets a little upset and likes to take it out on the table are balls i bet he does. dickie heres a good way to give the ferulle more support cut your 5/16 tenon 3/4 of a inch down from the tip end now on the last 1/4 inch make the tenon larger by .035 to.040 thousands larger this means you will have to open up the ferulle larger on that 1/4 inch down by the shaft but now if there is a side load put on the ferulle it now has a bigger base to support it and its 2 steps 1 helping the other to share the load i,ve been doing mine this way for years but i thread the first 3/4 of a inch and the last 1/4 of a inch down by the shaft is not threaded so as i thread it on it just slips over that last 1/4 of a inch doing it this way you will see when cutting the ferulle down on the lathe there will be almost no push off from the cutter because of the extra support at the base so you know if its not pushing off when its cut on the lathe then while your playing with the cue the ferulle is not flexing near as much as a single step design. it,s a little extra work but it works great. this also breaks up the grain supporting it like a extra colar. MADISON BOB CUSTOM CUES
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You know what Bob, you might be correct, I forgot about that one. That's how I've seen this type split happen, The sticks hitting the floor (will also cause tips to pop off), or someone smacking them off the table. I even saw a butt snap below the joint from slapping it on the table like that out of frustration. Not really super hard, but just enough sideways ways pressure in the a weak spot of the grain to cause it. another one i've seen Is if you get the shaft split in the joint ring work, then someone may have leaned against it while propped up against something.

Your method sounds really simular to mine, and that side support is another reason I do it. your correct, I hate the push off that causes It to taper the end of the ferrules, and it does seem to help some with that also. i've also used a really sharp live center to help support the end of the ferrule before, to help with that when possible. The step-up Seems to help self center the ferrules also when I screw them on, so they run really true, even before trimming them with a cleanup pass. I've been happy with it since i started doing it that way. think i'm sticking with it unless i get bad results from It farther down the line or something.
 
Hi Dick, This is just another thought. Wether your tenons are threaded, smooth, short, or long, you must have a smooth radius where the tenon meets the shoulder. I've seen a lot of shafts broken there doing repair work over the years, and in every case there was no radius, and sometimes worse yet when they faced the shoulder, they cut past the tenon dia. weakening the tenon even more.
If you're doing that, I've would guess you may be dealing with a person who breaks like Mike Sigel used too, putting a lot of pressure at the ferrule joint.
Dennis
 
bob griffin said:
dickie i bet money the old boy gets mad here and there and misses a shot and smacks the top of the cue ball are table with his ferulle i had a guy do me the same way before i found out what he was doing .
Click to expand...
This seems like the only logical reason for the cracks. It has happened only twice, out of all the cues you have made and the same guy is involved both times. That is not a coincidence. But now the real dilemma, do you fix what you know is not your fault?

Tracy
 
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Michael Webb said:
Just curious why you don't thread your ferrules.
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Actually Mike, I just never thought threading was needed. I am of the impression that threading the ferrules was something manufacturers did to save tying a machine up while the glue dried plus It looks to me that threading the tenon wood weaken it as it's kind of spindly out there already. If I ever heard a good arguement in favor of threading the ferrule I would change but since I've never had trouble with a ferrule loosening I just never seen a reason to change.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
Do you think this is just bad luck or maybe when I'm cutting my tenon I'm using a to sharply pointed tool not leaving a large enough radius or what?
Any ideas would be very greatly appreciated.
Dick
Click to expand...

I go with the "smack the cue on the ball/table/whatever" theory. I've seen too many people with this habit. Talk to some people that play with the guy or are around him regularly and ask if he has a problem like that. I have had exactly the same thing happen, and the guy's buddy ratted him out to me.
:D
 
rhncue said:
Actually Mike, I just never thought threading was needed. I am of the impression that threading the ferrules was something manufacturers did to save tying a machine up while the glue dried plus It looks to me that threading the tenon wood weaken it as it's kind of spindly out there already. If I ever heard a good arguement in favor of threading the ferrule I would change but since I've never had trouble with a ferrule loosening I just never seen a reason to change.
Dick
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Thanks, I thread everything because of rapid humidity changes up here, I see most of what's not threaded start to seperate and the black dirt line between the ferrule and shaft.
 
searingcue said:
Hi Dick, This is just another thought. Wether your tenons are threaded, smooth, short, or long, you must have a smooth radius where the tenon meets the shoulder. I've seen a lot of shafts broken there doing repair work over the years, and in every case there was no radius, and sometimes worse yet when they faced the shoulder, they cut past the tenon dia. weakening the tenon even more.
If you're doing that, I've would guess you may be dealing with a person who breaks like Mike Sigel used too, putting a lot of pressure at the ferrule joint.
Dennis
Click to expand...

That is one of the first things that I thought about When the 2nd shaft broke, that maybe I had sharpened the tooling and forgot to take my stone and radius the cutting tool. In cutting metal, I know a sharp angle is more prone to breaking than a radius. I usually only have a small radius anyway so maybe I should increase it. When cutting my ferrule I mark on the shaft where the ferrule must meet the shaft and then turn the shaft down incrementally from the end stopping about an 1/8th." from this mark and continually trying the ferrule until it just starts to slip on, I then go to the marked line and plunge cut to my previous depth plus about .001 more and draw that out to the end of the tennon which leaves a good fit plus a little room for epoxy. I then trim the ferrules length down to where the ferrule can abutt to the shaft, I then take off about .020ths. more, I use capped ferrules so there is a bleed hole at the end, with the lathe turning at about 50 rpm I cover the tenon with epoxy, I then fill the ferrule with epoxy so when pushed onto the tenon all the excess glue comes out the hole and not leaving any voids. I then center drill the ferrule and use the tailstock to keep the ferrule from deflecting away from the cutter.
Dick
 
bob griffin said:
dickie i bet money the old boy gets mad here and there and misses a shot and smacks the top of the cue ball are table with his ferulle i had a guy do me the same way before i found out what he was doing . it was the same type of damage you decribed.another thing if he miss cues on a draw shot he could be going under the cue ball and hitting the table putting a side load on the shaft. i only seen 3 shafts do this and all 3 were miss treated one was droped on a concrete floor right on the edge of the ferulle and the other 2 were smacked againest a ball i bet its not your doings. ask around and see if the old boy gets a little upset and likes to take it out on the table are balls i bet he does. dickie heres a good way to give the ferulle more support cut your 5/16 tenon 3/4 of a inch down from the tip end now on the last 1/4 inch make the tenon larger by .035 to.040 thousands larger this means you will have to open up the ferulle larger on that 1/4 inch down by the shaft but now if there is a side load put on the ferulle it now has a bigger base to support it and its 2 steps 1 helping the other to share the load i,ve been doing mine this way for years but i thread the first 3/4 of a inch and the last 1/4 of a inch down by the shaft is not threaded so as i thread it on it just slips over that last 1/4 of a inch doing it this way you will see when cutting the ferulle down on the lathe there will be almost no push off from the cutter because of the extra support at the base so you know if its not pushing off when its cut on the lathe then while your playing with the cue the ferulle is not flexing near as much as a single step design. it,s a little extra work but it works great. this also breaks up the grain supporting it like a extra colar. MADISON BOB CUSTOM CUES
Click to expand...

That may be the problem, I felt the shaft right in front of the ferrule to see if there was a dent where he may have smacked the rail but there was none. While talking to my boy last night he asked me if I'm sure that it's not actually the first shaft shaft that was broken and that he was only trying to get another shaft as this time he wants a Predator 314. I told him I would do it for the price of the blank. This is a time consuming shaft to make as it has inlaid deco rings. I don't think he would give me the wrong shaft on purpose but he may have grabbed the wrong shaft out of his case by mistake and thought he broke another. I'm going to ask him to see both the broken shafts before I build another. He was playing with the owner of the room when he noticed it broke and the owner, who is a freind of mine, said that he never seen him do anything out of the ordinary.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
While talking to my boy last night he asked me if I'm sure that it's not actually the first shaft shaft that was broken and that he was only trying to get another shaft as this time he wants a Predator 314.
Click to expand...
Dick,
If you replace a shaft, I think you are well within your rights, to request he trade in the broken one.

Tracy
 
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