Cue Design Theft?
- Thread starter Worminator
- Start date
azbicyclis85376
Banned
Worminator said:
Worminator are those your Cues? They are BEAUTIFUL....
Donald A. Purdy said:
Purdmann,
well I don't know who copied from whom but what I know is that back in 1992 at a very large cue show here in Germany on our stand we had about 15 Gina's and the black design shown in the pictures was among them. If you look into another thread here (Chao World Chamoionship Cue) you can see that Gina used the rainbow scheme a lot. I don't have a point here, but the cues pictured are no Gina's. To me the origin of the "rainbow scheme" is from Ernie Gutierrez. Most of the cuemakers copy a little here and there along their way to stardom..
Markus
i think you'll find the "4 points with butterfly in between " design going back to at least the 1920's. i find nothing to be concerned about. no one owns the concept.
this is a subject i had hope to see discussed here for a very long time and am grateful it has been brought up at this time.
this is a subject i had hope to see discussed here for a very long time and am grateful it has been brought up at this time.
Those are both very nice looking cues. I would be proud to own them!azbicyclis85376
Banned
Sheldon said:
AMEN
Imitation is the HIGHEST form of Flattery, how many are Building SIX POINTERS, Bert Schrager I believe was First. So are all Six Pointers, Copies of Schrager’s NO. Bert was just the First…
Sheldon said:
I think you have got to the crux of the debate that was going on in another thread about cue design theft. Most cuemakers copy certain elements,and sometimes wholesale design from another cue. However, if a cue was made as an identical copy down to the smallest detail, with the intention to be passed off as the 'real thing', that's WRONG. For the simpler designs, it can barely be avoidable at all. On the other hand, few if any cuemaker of repute would be willing to copy particularly elaborate designs (scrimshaws designs, special one-offs). IMHO, the most important thing in a cue is the playability and feel, which is individual to each cuemaker as construction techniques differ.
Oh no..I just realised I owned several hoppe copies..so go ahead..flame me..afterall I've been through the fires of Mount Doom...
Eddie Chin
*Polishes his hoppe rings lovingly*
Worminator said:
I can't see these pictures very good, on my computer (21"monitor) they are only 2 inches long and blurry. I can tell you one thing they are both Ginacue designs, one is his 30th anniversary cue and the other is a Rasputin. From what I can see they don't look to be made by Ernie. The fact that I can tell from such bad pictures who designed them means they had better be Ginacues or they are (IMO) stolen designs. Again the pics are bad, Ernie may have made them and changed a few things, he's been known to do that. In any event the point is that I can tell from bad pictures that these are Ginacue designs and for all you people who feel that nothing new has come along in cue designs in the past 10 years are fools. There are certain cues and certain designs that you can tell from across the room, to copy them is stealing and not flattery, true artist create designs and they scream the name of who made them. Hacks take that cue and use it as a shortcut and it's plane lazy. The fact is I can post a picture of 10 cues and anyone who has been around cues for more then 3-5 years would look at them and in 1 minute be able to name who made the cues without seeing any makers mark or signatures. So tell us all now, who made these Ginacues???
Jim
JimBo said:
First of all, they are not my cues and sorry for the bad pics. Secondly, they are Phillippi's. I think these cues exemplify the point (made by some) of the other thread.
Worminator said:
If by some you're talking about me then I thank you for making my point. What I can't understand is how people can't see what I am talking about. Where is the guy who was mad that I said Phillippi made knockoffs? Is there any doubt in anyone's mind who's design this is? Does anyone think that 2 people can come up with the same exact design and not have known about the other? Should Ernie be honored?? Where is the person who wants to tell me the ring work is different so these aren't knockoffs? There is no need for this to go on and anyone who has any pride in their work wouldn't do it, it's lazy and just plain stealing IMO. This isn't a case of 4 points and 4 veneers and a few slotted diamonds, there is no doubt that this is a well thought out design and a well thought out copy of that design, it's wrong and people need to speak out against it, I have no respect for an artist who would ever do something like this.
JIM
I usually stay out of these things, but mixing butterfly points and v-groove points is a couple of hundred years old. Yes, Ernie made it popular again on high end cues, but you will find it on lower end Adams and other imported cues from the 70's and 80's. So Ernie was not doing anything new here. How many are now complaining about the majority of cuemakers now using shorter joint rings. That is something South West made popular, though they were not the first to do it. Similar designs will always show up. Exact copies of complex designs seems wrong to me, but these are just simple v-points over the top of butterfly points. Very primitive design even though it looks very sharp.i210mfu said:Purdmann,
well I don't know who copied from whom but what I know is that back in 1992 at a very large cue show here in Germany on our stand we had about 15 Gina's and the black design shown in the pictures was among them. If you look into another thread here (Chao World Chamoionship Cue) you can see that Gina used the rainbow scheme a lot. I don't have a point here, but the cues pictured are no Gina's. To me the origin of the "rainbow scheme" is from Ernie Gutierrez. Most of the cuemakers copy a little here and there along their way to stardom..
Markus
cueman said:
Chris I can't believe you jumped in and posted this. Your first line was right on target you should have stayed out like normal. I just lost all respect for you, if you really believe that this cue is just butterfly and V groove points. Did you even look at the pics posted at the start of the thread? Are you serious??? I am shaking my head in disbelief. Can you with a serious face look at the 2 phillippi cues in the first post of this thread and tell me that they are not knockoffs of a Ginacue design??? I am really disappointed and shocked. The fact that you can't even look at a cue and tell it's well thought out design that involves balance, color, size, and placement is amazing, and even if we say that the 30th anniversary cue is "just" butterfly and V groove points what about the other cue? Was that something that has been around since 1912?? I almost feel like Ashton Kuocher (?) is going to pop out any minute now and tell me I'm being punked.
Jim
JimBo said:
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...
These are not cue theft.. they are far from whole cue rip offs (your words pal). Thats what you said you were fighting, right? Whole cue copies, remember. Guess what.. these don't qualify. Sorry Jim, can't have it both ways. All they are, are Gina inspired. The Gina cues have alot of silver in them, these cues do not. Sorry Jim, as much as you would like to keep trying to redefine theft, you can't. You cannot say whole cue rip off and change it just because its one of your heros. And because you find the similarities disturbing. Get a life Jim. Also try and be more consistent with your accusations.
Joe (---trade winds they are a blowin'... Jimbo's sails about to shift and change his goin's...
Jimbo,
What gives? How can you continue on with your crap and think you are proving a point? Next time you say "a cuemaker is a thief" post the pic of the original including circa date so we can see it for ourselves. All of the cues that I have seen have similar traits to other cuemakers, but can be identified by even the most novice cue enthusiast not to be Balabushka/G Szamboti/ Ginacue/etc....
I hope you can provide some examples...looking forward to the pics...
PS... How could you not tell that those cues were Phillippi's? Bad pics LOL
What gives? How can you continue on with your crap and think you are proving a point? Next time you say "a cuemaker is a thief" post the pic of the original including circa date so we can see it for ourselves. All of the cues that I have seen have similar traits to other cuemakers, but can be identified by even the most novice cue enthusiast not to be Balabushka/G Szamboti/ Ginacue/etc....
I hope you can provide some examples...looking forward to the pics...
PS... How could you not tell that those cues were Phillippi's? Bad pics LOL
I have no solid opinion regarding design theft, the definition of and whether it applies here.
But there's little doubt that the cues are at least Gina inspired, and I think it's amazing that the same overall design can yield such different results. The Philipi "copies" are incredibly ugly imo, especially the second one. I wouldn't be caught dead with that cue, it's garish and awkward, whereas the original Gina is perfect.
-Roger
But there's little doubt that the cues are at least Gina inspired, and I think it's amazing that the same overall design can yield such different results. The Philipi "copies" are incredibly ugly imo, especially the second one. I wouldn't be caught dead with that cue, it's garish and awkward, whereas the original Gina is perfect.
-Roger
classiccues said:Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...
These are not cue theft.. they are far from whole cue rip offs (your words pal). Thats what you said you were fighting, right? Whole cue copies, remember. Guess what.. these don't qualify. Sorry Jim, can't have it both ways. All they are, are Gina inspired. The Gina cues have alot of silver in them, these cues do not. Sorry Jim, as much as you would like to keep trying to redefine theft, you can't. You cannot say whole cue rip off and change it just because its one of your heros. And because you find the similarities disturbing. Get a life Jim. Also try and be more consistent with your accusations.
Joe (---trade winds they are a blowin'... Jimbo's sails about to shift and change his goin's...
Joe at first I thought it was just an act, thanks for proving what a total fool you are. The 2 cues at the beginning of this thread are complete rip-offs, everything other then the ring work and my guess is the gina rings were too much work. If you agree with other idiots that they are designs that go back 50+ years then I guess I gave you more credit then you deserved. I'm not shocked that you have no clue what a design is when talking about cues, but maybe Mark didn't get that far in your education. As far as having a good laugh about me goes don't worry we had a good laugh about you also, don't forget sometimes salesman know how to play both sides against the middle. Also for you to make a comment that the only reason I said this was due to respect for Ernie is a complete joke, it boils down to something you lack, an eye for cues and common sense. I'd hate for one of Mark's idols to agree with me cause you'd look like an even bigger fool when you tried to back pedal. I've been very consistent from day one sorry the truth doesn't fit your little rants.
Jim