cue joint
- Thread starter sciarco
- Start date
Two me it depends on the shaft but I like radial for bigger pins and 5/16 14
Big pin flat ivory joints....3/8x10 or 3/8x11 or Radial Pin.......but always with a flat ivory joint.
Matt B.
Matt B.
Matt.... I completely agree!!!
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Doesn't really matter unless you let yourself believe it does. Nobody can tell the difference between them by feel...even if they think they can.
The only thing I say, from an engineer's point of view is that the joints with a relatively tight tolerance between pin and female thread drive me nuts. There is no benefit to having a tight fit on the pin. Anybody who uses or claims to use the screw as a locating feature (especially the radial and flat-bottom threads) needs to take a remedial course in design.
The only thing I say, from an engineer's point of view is that the joints with a relatively tight tolerance between pin and female thread drive me nuts. There is no benefit to having a tight fit on the pin. Anybody who uses or claims to use the screw as a locating feature (especially the radial and flat-bottom threads) needs to take a remedial course in design.
You are kidding right? So the vibration transfer through different materials and size has NO effect on the hit? Talk about a remedial course
Just like with shafts, there is no "best" joint, just the one you like.
There are top cuemakers that use just about every type of joint. I think the only one that is common I have not seen a custom maker use is the thread that Meucci and some other cues use like Action and Players use.
I like the 3/8 x 10, I have to say for looks as much as anything, and it seems to give a solid connection for a wood to wood joint. Ever since I saw a SW cue with that pin, I've wanted them in my cues.
eddie0776....he's got a lot to still learn......look at the masterpiece cues made by all the greats.......ivory was the joint of choice.....simple metallurgy testifies there's a difference......a steel pin housed inside an all wood shaft is what a flat faced ivory joint uses....the butt joint face is flat, smooth ivory....the shaft face is all wood....no metal anyway....all flat smooth wood that seats securely against a flat ivory joint......and he thinks screwing together a 5/16x14 piloted steel joint into a shaft that has a brass receiver weighing almost 1/2 oz. doesn't produce"any" different feel?????
Oh well, but as you know there is a "BIG" difference but to each their own I suppose......those piloted cue shafts that weigh 3.5, 3.6 or 3.7 ozs .....remove the brass and see what the shaft wood actually weighs......the weight of the cue shafts with a flat faced ivory joint is all wood....no metal........I'd much rather play with cue shafts weighing 3.75 -4,2 ozs (all wood) than with cue shafts weighing 3.5 -3.8 ounces that contain brass metal inside the shafts that screws together forming a truly solid but pretty insensitive feeling cue joint. Just the balance of the cue is tremendously affected and if you could compare two identical cues...ones piloted steel joint and the other flat faced ivory joint, a pool player can experience firsthand what this is really all about.
Oh well, but as you know there is a "BIG" difference but to each their own I suppose......those piloted cue shafts that weigh 3.5, 3.6 or 3.7 ozs .....remove the brass and see what the shaft wood actually weighs......the weight of the cue shafts with a flat faced ivory joint is all wood....no metal........I'd much rather play with cue shafts weighing 3.75 -4,2 ozs (all wood) than with cue shafts weighing 3.5 -3.8 ounces that contain brass metal inside the shafts that screws together forming a truly solid but pretty insensitive feeling cue joint. Just the balance of the cue is tremendously affected and if you could compare two identical cues...ones piloted steel joint and the other flat faced ivory joint, a pool player can experience firsthand what this is really all about.
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I am a cue maker and I have used several different pins and joint styles, to me the best hit is just as you said. The cue in my avatar is my cue I made for me and guess what it has for a joint? Flat faced ivory 3/8 x 10 pin and it is one of my favorites of all the cues I have ever made.
They look the same to me hehe. It's easier finding 3/8 x 10 shafts
As far as joint material, I am not a big fan of ivory, and have not liked metal joints for quite a bit.
There was a post out there recently or maybe I got to it on a web site where they showed a few pins along with some modified versions where they had different angles or different sharpness of the threads along with the spaces left between the connection. Was pretty interesting to see, but I wonder how much an extra 2 cubic mm of air space in a joint will make to the hit by using different threads (not just joint material because that changes the feel quite a bit).
There probably isn't any "best" joint on a cue, although I personally think a 5/16x18 pin is not the way to go. It's really up to the individual.
If I could shoot as well as Efren, a pair of vise grips would work. :smile:
If I could shoot as well as Efren, a pair of vise grips would work. :smile:
I have to say that, after trying all kinds of different makers and joint types... From Southwest to Scruggs to Tascarella to Hercek to Danny Tibbitts, etc, etc.... You get my point. MY PERSONAL favorite hits are my Dzuricky with an ivory sleeved flat face MODIFIED 3/8-10, and my Tibbitts with solid ivory flat face 3/8-10, closely followed by James White 3/8-10 ivory flat face, then Lambros ultra joint.
Never thought that Ivory was the greatest thing on earth. To me, it has too many risks and downsides associated with it to pursue owning or making ivory jointed cues. Ivory isn't as renewable as other sources out there, and is prone to cracking. I don't care for it in ferrules or as a joint material. I've played with both, and the best hitting cues I've owned did not have this material incorporated into the structural design at all. It's pretty, machines well, and that's about it.
This subject has been beaten to death before. It really comes down to a good snug fit at the joint. Not to mention there are other factors out there. Shaft Taper, Tone Woods, etc.... Steel, phenolic and ivory will all produce different results in feedback. "Best" is not a good way to compare these differences.
It really comes down to process. Many builders want an efficient way to put together their cues, if they find a repeatable method that allows them to produce a good hit consistently, they will stick to it. Also, many cuemakers who have apprenticed under their predecessors will simply use what the guy before them used, mainly because those are the materials they've invested into. You will find some good discussions about joint types in the Ask the Cuemaker section, where Piloted vs Flat Face arguments have occurred. It's all very intriguing, but at the end of the day, I think that it's a small thing to worry about in the scheme of things.
This subject has been beaten to death before. It really comes down to a good snug fit at the joint. Not to mention there are other factors out there. Shaft Taper, Tone Woods, etc.... Steel, phenolic and ivory will all produce different results in feedback. "Best" is not a good way to compare these differences.
It really comes down to process. Many builders want an efficient way to put together their cues, if they find a repeatable method that allows them to produce a good hit consistently, they will stick to it. Also, many cuemakers who have apprenticed under their predecessors will simply use what the guy before them used, mainly because those are the materials they've invested into. You will find some good discussions about joint types in the Ask the Cuemaker section, where Piloted vs Flat Face arguments have occurred. It's all very intriguing, but at the end of the day, I think that it's a small thing to worry about in the scheme of things.
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ElCorazonFrio
Banned
You are kidding right? So the vibration transfer through different materials and size has NO effect on the hit? Talk about a remedial course
Nope not kidding. I never said that vibrations weren't affected by different materials. I said that people couldn't tell the difference. There have been blind tests that everybody in the test got wrong. There is evidence that has been posted on this forum.
The 'hit' of the cue will not be changed by the joint or the pin. The contact time is too short for that. Add in the fact that a cue has a leather tip which would dampen the vibrations even were the contact time long enough for them to have an influence and it is pretty clear to all but the most casual of observers that the joint doesn't matter.
After all this, even if the 'feel' of the cue were different, that is after the contact and offers nothing more than feedback to the user which won't change the shot.
The tip, ferrule and shaft stiffness affect the feel and squirt more than the joint ever will.
But, I do things like this for a living and am a certified engineer, so there's no reason to put any stock in what I say.
Until ECF acquires some first hand cue-making experience, his academic credentials hardly qualifies him to speak of that which he apparently knows very little......but why put stock or attach importance to what cue-makers use. Why bother to look at the joints on the very best cue photos in all 3 editions of the Blue Book of Cues........or see what Azers have in their collections......or listen to the opinions of esteemed cue-makers........I mean that seems like a waste of time when we can defer to the opinion of ECF who possesses all this worldly firsthand cue-making experience.
His educational needs are so vast and great, I'd have to compose a long essay on the elements applying the greatest influence on hit -feel. There's a lot of factors that combine and create he sensation of feel starting with the shape of the tip, hardness, where on the cue ball was it struck and force of stroke, the ferrule length and composition, the shaft taper, wood compression, weight, joint type, pin type, balance point, & weight bolt (ozs), wrap - type - position or wrap-less, and assembled weight of the cue. Some heavier ivory joint pool cues tend to hit differently due to the cue's weight, ex, 19.8 ozs vs. 18.5 ozs. I found this out by owning and playing with several ivory joint cues of varying weights over the span of several years. At the same time, flat ivory joints play differently than other ivory cue joint versions. FYI..... I've recommended flat ivory joints to several Azers whom inquired how it plays and everyone seems thrilled to have made the switch.......Again, it always comes down to each his own.
His educational needs are so vast and great, I'd have to compose a long essay on the elements applying the greatest influence on hit -feel. There's a lot of factors that combine and create he sensation of feel starting with the shape of the tip, hardness, where on the cue ball was it struck and force of stroke, the ferrule length and composition, the shaft taper, wood compression, weight, joint type, pin type, balance point, & weight bolt (ozs), wrap - type - position or wrap-less, and assembled weight of the cue. Some heavier ivory joint pool cues tend to hit differently due to the cue's weight, ex, 19.8 ozs vs. 18.5 ozs. I found this out by owning and playing with several ivory joint cues of varying weights over the span of several years. At the same time, flat ivory joints play differently than other ivory cue joint versions. FYI..... I've recommended flat ivory joints to several Azers whom inquired how it plays and everyone seems thrilled to have made the switch.......Again, it always comes down to each his own.
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I think your question should actually be "what is the best pin-type?"
What is a "best joint" encompasses many parts. The surface contact and style, the material, and pin. For instance - flat-face/piloted, stainless/phenolic/wood to wood/ivory/brass, with pin type. There are other types but you get the idea. Personally of all these and more, I think the pin type is the least important in directly affecting the hit of a cue. I can't tell the difference between a 3/8s 10 or a radial. I've played with GREAT cues with loose fitting pins.
I don't know what the type it's called (probably because it was unique unto itself) but Ray Schuler's joints were the most solid i've ever played with. It's kind of like a double-piloted and it's super strong. Billiard players love the cue. And btw I think billiard players are much more cue savvy than pool players.
The joint is a part of the collective whole, but in general the more hard materials used in the build of a cue, the harder the feel and hit. You build an cue with an ebony nose, ebony butt, ss piloted joint, ivory ferrule, buffalo tip, tight-grain tapered shaft,,,it's going to be a f'ing hard hitting cue
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It's what you like, everybody is different. I personally love a 5/16x14 steel piloted & that's what I play with. I also own a flat faced ivory joint radial pin Scruggs that has a fantastic hit & I play it occasionally but I always go back to the steel jointed Frey. It's just what I like. There is no "better", just what you like.