My favorite joint is radial pin by far.
Just don't understand why every cue maker doesn't use them....lol
cue joint
- Thread starter sciarco
- Start date
My favorite joint is radial pin by far.
Just don't understand why every cue maker doesn't use them....lol
Big pin ??
Hey guys , realize a majority of ya'all prefer the big pins.
I've 2 different customs with 3-8-11pin and 4 other more well known custom with 3-8-10 yet i still always go back to my 3-8-11's. Wierd right ?!
Moreover i posted yesterday regarding how i adore 3-8-11 and i got a couple telling me its B.S n that its impossible for me to feel the difference of 1 extra thread but i feel i can.
am i dellusional or its just a "feel" thing ?
Another of my favourite pin is mezz exclusive united joint, really solid hit ?!
F.y.i i dislike their radial joint, lacks power i feel ?
Any fans out there of the 3/8/11 n united joint ?
Peace
Ryan
Hey guys , realize a majority of ya'all prefer the big pins.
I've 2 different customs with 3-8-11pin and 4 other more well known custom with 3-8-10 yet i still always go back to my 3-8-11's. Wierd right ?!
Moreover i posted yesterday regarding how i adore 3-8-11 and i got a couple telling me its B.S n that its impossible for me to feel the difference of 1 extra thread but i feel i can.
am i dellusional or its just a "feel" thing ?
Another of my favourite pin is mezz exclusive united joint, really solid hit ?!
F.y.i i dislike their radial joint, lacks power i feel ?
Any fans out there of the 3/8/11 n united joint ?
Peace
Ryan
<ElCorazonFrio;5216631]Any cuemaker can invent any new style, size or shape screw he wants to. Bully for him. To claim that a 'new' screw does the job better <than a couple thousand years worth of iterations on screws is a bit ridiculous. If it does do the job better, I'd like to see evidence...untested personal opinion is <not evidence.
<A screw has one job in a cue and that is to provide a means of clamping a shaft to a butt. Using a threaded pin for anything other than that is ridiculously bad practice.
I designed the Radial pin to eliminate several problems that the 3/8-10 and other wood screws had when used for pool cues.
First, the fit of the wood to the metal screw. A "V shaped thread form" must have some "clearance" or it won't screw in. That is a fact. The Radial was modeled on a ball screw" and has only .001" or less clearance providing a much tighter fit.
Then I looked at the threads inside the shaft on the "V" shaped thread. The threads form a Pyramid shape. Because of the grain of the wood, the top of the pyramid was very fragile and broke off easily. This crumbling changed the fit of the screw.
The Radial design inside the shaft has the profile of a mound with much more support for the top of the mound thus eliminating the tendency for the top to crumble.
Finally, because of the design, the Radial pin could be polished much better and offered a more finished appearance.
I didn't design any of the pin designs including the Uniloc just to be different. I designed them to be better.
Bill S.
<A screw has one job in a cue and that is to provide a means of clamping a shaft to a butt. Using a threaded pin for anything other than that is ridiculously bad practice.
I designed the Radial pin to eliminate several problems that the 3/8-10 and other wood screws had when used for pool cues.
First, the fit of the wood to the metal screw. A "V shaped thread form" must have some "clearance" or it won't screw in. That is a fact. The Radial was modeled on a ball screw" and has only .001" or less clearance providing a much tighter fit.
Then I looked at the threads inside the shaft on the "V" shaped thread. The threads form a Pyramid shape. Because of the grain of the wood, the top of the pyramid was very fragile and broke off easily. This crumbling changed the fit of the screw.
The Radial design inside the shaft has the profile of a mound with much more support for the top of the mound thus eliminating the tendency for the top to crumble.
Finally, because of the design, the Radial pin could be polished much better and offered a more finished appearance.
I didn't design any of the pin designs including the Uniloc just to be different. I designed them to be better.
Bill S.
A while back, Murray Tucker posted an article summarizing the results of the McChesney blind experiment from 1991. The link to his post is provided. I believe these results are just below random guessing, but probably not significantly so.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3286694&postcount=18
I use 5/16x14 SS piloted because I like the cue's balance pretty far forward. It is the easiest way to get that type of balance. While I like compression as the joint is assembled, but having lost that over time in my cues, I can't say I like them any less.
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ECF........stop embarrassing yourself with your pathetic ignorant opinions about cue-making.......you speak as if you've actually accomplished anything in life to accredit you in wood crafting.......let alone pool cues
Your remarks are reminiscent of someone looking to ague about something they have absolutely little understanding about......ECF might play a great game of pool but that hardly qualifies him to express such expert opinions about pool cue construction......it's moronic posts such as his that keeps the Forum entertaining and depressing concurrently.
Mr. Stroud, on behalf of pool cue entusiasts everywhere, thank you for your contributions and please forgive the antics and mindless utterings from some highly opinionated Azer who has so much to still learn about cue-making but with his mindset, that might be unattainable.
Matt B.
Your remarks are reminiscent of someone looking to ague about something they have absolutely little understanding about......ECF might play a great game of pool but that hardly qualifies him to express such expert opinions about pool cue construction......it's moronic posts such as his that keeps the Forum entertaining and depressing concurrently.
Mr. Stroud, on behalf of pool cue entusiasts everywhere, thank you for your contributions and please forgive the antics and mindless utterings from some highly opinionated Azer who has so much to still learn about cue-making but with his mindset, that might be unattainable.
Matt B.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Actually I'm a mediocre pool player, but an accomplished engineer. I understand a lot about mechanical joints, materials properties, tolerances, machining and physics. I had, when I was 20, more cuemaking work than I could handle. I'm not going to say that my cues were the greatest made, but I'm betting you have no cuemaking experience from which to throw stones. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm talking to the ghost of Gus.
I really don't understand your vitriol. Two accomplished cuemakers have responded very civilly to me. Mr. Stroud explained why he likes the radial from a cuemaking point of view. I don't necessarily agree with all of his claims, but he has defended it and I can accept that.
You have stated that the best playing cues have ivory joints. You have provided no evidence of this (besides your opinion and anecdotal evidence). You fail to give any real explanation for your statements, yet you attack someone who has given at least some credentials.
You seem like a very insecure person.
Here are some more of my credentials, feel free to list yours:
-Over a decade working as a mechanical engineer in the aerospace industry, specializing in machining and fastening major structural engineering components.
-Hobbyist cuemaker from 1995-2003. I say hobbyist because I never intended on making a career out of it. I taught myself how to make cues without videos, books or tutelage. I did this by studying, testing, and trial and error.
-Hobbyist knifemaker from 2000-present. Again, I have no intentions of making a career out of this. Again, I taught myself how to do this. I prefer to make folding knives because I enjoy designing and making the mechanisms.
-I designed and assisted in building a custom motorcycle frame. My brother did the welding, we machined the parts. This is a one-of-a-kind brushed stainless steel frame for which we fabricated every part except the springs/shocks.
-I've designed and built custom cue cases from leather and wood. One of my cases was seen by John Barton and he said it was the most beautiful case he had seen in a long time. This case was bent wood and leather. I have had offers to buy that case and the leather/stainless steel case I made. I've attached an in-progress photo of that.
So...what are your qualifications?
Attachments
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Thanks for the link.
I agree about the balance issue. I fully believe that a cue should be comfortable. Like Mr. Tucker, I don't put much stock in the joint/pin noticeably affecting playability or feel of the cue.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
A locating feature is something which is used to either align or locate one part to another. The piloted stainless joints like many Schon cues use is an example of a locating feature. As the shaft is screwed together, it may, and I contend that it should, be loose on the threads, in other words, there is clearance between the male and female threads, but the pilot will be tight on the shoulder.
A locating feature like the pilot on the Schon cues is what will keep the collars on the butt and shaft aligned to each other.
The reason that a normal screw is a bad locating feature is that the angled threads will push to one side as the part is tightened. This is because the contact between male and female threads is inherently going to be uneven, the forces between the faces of the mating threads will not be evenly distributed.
A pilot or shoulder will overcome the lateral forces induced by the threads and keep everything aligned.
Joey posted about the flat-bottomed thread and it is truly a method of accomplishing this, but I am not a fan because it relies upon the entire length of the screw to be in contact with the flat bottom of the threads all throughout assembly. Same for the radial thread--tight tolerances over parts that are in contact for the duration of assembly is a bad engineering practice. A locating feature should be in contact as short as possible to accomplish the desired effect.
The joint that ceebee posted uses the taper to locate. This is a very good feature as the taper provides a lot of contact area (strong), but is only in contact when the two faces meet, thus there is minimal wear between the two faces, as opposed to the tight screw which is sliding against the threads the entire time it is being assembled.
They wear out after a while . Specially the wooden ones .
We are dealing with wood here ( or phenolic insert or reinforced nylon ) when using flat-bottom or radial screws. They do have some give .
You can even bore the hole over size up to a length and let the pin's pilot line up the shaft if you choose to do so. But, I've found that to be just another work not needed.
I use flat-bottom and radial . I cannot think of a reason to go down to 5/16 piloted or old 3/8 10 unless requested. There's just no upside to it for me .
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
All of this sounds reasonable.
My main point about wear is that the less time spent with the aligning faces rubbing during assembly, the less wear that is going to occur.
Also, the smaller the aligning faces and the more clearance (to a point, not saying anything should be sloppy) in other spaces, the less likely that dirt and grime is going to cause a problem. This is the only thing I don't like about the joint that ceebee showed--the aligning faces are huge. The upside is that those faces are easy to access and can be easily cleaned.
I'm not trying to tell people that they do things incorrectly--obviously many things work. I am trying to make people think about the positives and negatives of any design.
You are kidding right? So the vibration transfer through different materials and size has NO effect on the hit? Talk about a remedial course
The vibration of tip-to-CB contact has not even reached half way down the shaft to the joint by the time the CB leaves the tip.
In other experiments, given a number of cues all built with the same shafts, ferrules, tips, weights, and balance points--but the joint hidden with masking tape; a series of pros were not able to tell which cue had which joint.
His credentials are that he has a bunch of ivory jointed cues that he keeps bragging about, so it is completely self-serving that he tries to discredit your cue knowledge because he is going to look pretty dumb if you are right about not being able to tell the type of joint a cue has by its "hit."
Farhan
RSPECT
That guy was my first ever entry into the Ignore list, although since you guys quote him I see his posts anyway LOL
Wonder if he's going for the "most un-liked person on forums" award.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question
Gladly, I hope my explanation was sufficient.
I have been playing pool for 55 years… lived & played in NYC, NJ, Chicago, Dallas-Ft.Worth, Kansas City, San Franciso, LA & Fresno.
Over that span of time, I’ve spoken with pool players (amateurs & road players) and many cue-makers about their opinions. Although I am
not an engineer, I actually do possess first hand, real world experience about that which I write by way of my purchase and sale of approx.
$40k in pool cues over the last 2 decades which includes my current collection. I’m neither here to battle or type posts about that which I know
little unlike some others whom have spectacularly illustrated their stubbornness and ignorance……..ivory joints and big pins absolutely are the
apogee in cue joint designs…...NUF CED!.......Happy Fathers Day.
Matt B.
Over that span of time, I’ve spoken with pool players (amateurs & road players) and many cue-makers about their opinions. Although I am
not an engineer, I actually do possess first hand, real world experience about that which I write by way of my purchase and sale of approx.
$40k in pool cues over the last 2 decades which includes my current collection. I’m neither here to battle or type posts about that which I know
little unlike some others whom have spectacularly illustrated their stubbornness and ignorance……..ivory joints and big pins absolutely are the
apogee in cue joint designs…...NUF CED!.......Happy Fathers Day.
Matt B.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Hopefully someone will quote this, also.
If I am 'unliked' (the word is 'disliked', BTW) by people who will ask me if they left my sister with an illegitimate child, then 'most disliked' poster, then I'll gladly wear that title.
Unlike means that things are dissimilar.
Disliked means something is unpopular or held in disregard.
As in: Unlike you, I try to further most conversations. Unlike you, I have a sense of humor and if someone said to me, 'Congratulations on the slop', I'd think that maybe it was in jest. Unlike you, I wouldn't suggest that I was the type of person who would leave a fatherless child in the world. These things have caused you to dislike me.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Yeah...opinions and real world experience. This is anecdotal evidence. I live in a world where people use physics and scientific methods before claiming that something is better than anything else. Until I see that evidence, I will remain stubborn to what my knowledge of physics dictates.
You may not be stubborn (though your absolutely closed mind on the subject suggests otherwise), but you certainly are willing to insult others.
Bless your heart, the years can set one in his ways.