cue lathe - What's a beginner to buy?

[Strange_Days]

Zagiflyer, Thats some great info there thanks. sometimes it seems as though there are a thousand and one things to buy to get started. I checked through the entire atlas website to get an idea of what is available and what is needed. I have a pretty good idea on what is needed for the main startup but some things I am unsure about. I would like to tell you guys what I have for tools and hopefully you can tell me what else I need:

Have:

• Tablesaw
• Drill press
• Bandsaw
• Wood lathe (hopefully convert to help out with cues)
• Horizontal Borer
• Mitre Saw
• Compressor
• 2 1/4hp router combo
• a variety of chisels/planes/drill bits etc..
• Shopvac
• Lots of unrelated construction equipment and stuff I can't remember right now because its 3am (graveyard shift)

Need:

• Dial calipers - are the atlas ones good enough, should I buy expensive ones?
  
• taps/dies - any help on what I should should buy here would be great, no clue
  
• linen press - available at atlas, do you need one of these to put on a wrap, or anything else to put on leather wrap (I think that leather wrap will be a big hit here, the few people that have them rave about them all the time)
  
• endmills - also available at atlas, do I need this?

now what am I missing? (closes eyes and prays)

I will be getting tips, ferrules(which come in way to many varieties btw), bumpers, joint screws, wraps, wood in many flavors (thanks Zagiflyer), and a whole boatload of other stuff I need I am sure in the coming months

Thanks again,

And Blud if you read this could you let me know what your cue building jet lathe runs for a price? probably out of my league but I'd hate not to ask and regret later.

Matt LeClerc

 

[Zagiflyer]

Matt:

You have plenty of woodworking equipment. I have my lathe, a crappy little bandsaw and a table saw. I wish I had all the stuff you have. Just get your lathe and some cue parts and you have what you need to start experimenting. I have a cheap digital caliper from Harbor Freight and it works fine.

As far as taps and dies are concerned I believe that Atlas and Prather offers packages that have what you need. I have a 3/8-10 for 3/8 joints (directly into wood shaft with no insert) and handle joints, a 3/8-16 for weight bolts, a 5/16-14 and 5/16-18 for those joints, a 7/16-14 for the brass joint inserts into shafts and a 8-32 for bumper screws. If you get into Uni-Lock and Radial Pin joints you need some special stuff. You can probably get these taps anywhere but the ones I got from Prather are undercut with a long shank and work well for cues. As far as "dies" are concerned, Chris makes really nice tenon threaders that go into the tailstock chuck. They come in two sizes, 5/16-18 for thread-on ferrules and 5/8-11 for metal joint collars.

For linen wraps I initially just polished a couple hardwood boards and put in a hinge and used that to press wraps and it worked fine. Later I bought a wood tool with the rollers on it as well (from Atlas I believe or maybe Prather) and it works even better. I don't know anything about leather wraps and I never tried to put one on. I understand that's it's very difficult to do well so I'll try that sometime well into the future when I have hopefully mastered some of the more simple operations.

You probably don't need any endmills for awhile. I'm just starting to experiment with inlays such as slotted rings and you can use straight router bits as endmills to cut slots with for starters. The endmills are used for cutting pockets for inlays and cutting very thin slots. You can also use an endmills in the router as cutoff tools for parting rings. Don't go crazy buying stuff.....as you start experimenting you will find out what you need and what you can get by without.

 

[Tommy-D]

> Other things you will need are typical machinists tools like Allen wrenches,tap handles,several different dial/test indicators,a set of 6" dial or digital calipers and a couple of micrometers. Hand tools like files,rifflers,a good deburring tool,and too many others to give a complete list can be found in lots of different places,and often are found cheap. Measuring tools are one thing,though,you do not want to be cheap about. A good 0-1" mike can cost about 80 bucks or more,even higher if you go with digital stuff,and a really good test indicator,like Interapid,are usually 200. It should go without saying that you should buy the best stuff you can afford,accurate measuring tools are worth their weight in gold. Search high and low for bargains too,I got a Mitutoyo digital mike for 60 bucks at my local pawn shop,the same one that matches my calipers,the newest update for that model has the matched set selling for 325 in most of the catalogs I have. Make friends with the most experienced machinists and toolmakers you can,their experience can make things easier on you when you ask questions about technique or setup,shortening your learning curve. Tommy D.

 

[Ring]

I am also building up my inventory of cuemaking equipment. I used to help out in a shop for about 4yrs until I sold what I had invested at the time and moved to another state and got married.

I searched hard for 6mos for a good lathe. I got a 13x36 clausing colchester MKII, also know as the American version of the Master lathe.

Granted its old, made in 1969, but its still better than any Chinesse lathe that you can buy today.

I only paid 1600 for the lathe, collet closer, 16 collets, taper attachement, live center and 2 dead centers. It had been in a high school machine shop since it was purchased in 1970. There was some careless damage, but barrings sound great and the ways in fine shape. Overall a tight machine

So, good to great deals are out there depending on where your located, you just need to look and have money ready to get a good deal.

Only thing I have bought that is special to cuemaking are taps. So far I have made all most all of what i need to do cue repair.

Next up is making a lathe for sanding and finish work.

But I am the type who would rather make and know how to make the equipment i need vs. buying it, like a Porper lathe and such. Plus I think its cheaper in the end.

 

[Strange_Days]

What to do...what to do....

Well, I'm finally home after a two week refresher course for my real job. now back to the task of what I "want" to be doing

I visited MASE while I was in Toronto. Thank you Roy for the tour and explanation of everything, it was really helpful. It was great to get a little firshand knowledge of the woods, tools, and approach to cue making. I also got to hit with his cue just a little but I was VERY impressed with the hit.

Now back to business I've been scouring ads and have come across an ad for this lathe

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33274

The guy is asking $2800 cdn for it and says its been used once. He says he bought it, then the CM 13X40 lathe and decided once he set them up that he only needed the larger one and wants to sell this one. Now is the 36 inch between centers really enough or should I just scrap that and look for 40 inches between centers. Also, the Lathe MASE showed me last week he had a taper bar attached to the back. Do I need to buy a lathe with a taper attachment ability or can I modify any lathe for this task? Finally, I notice not many cuebuilders buy new machines to use, is there a reason for this? are the new machines (chinese) just not the same quality as old school lathes?

I may be able to work with the price a bit, he has had it for sale for a while. also he bought a stand for it for $450 here in Canada. The closest I can come to that is busybee lathe for around $3700 that I posted initially.

all comments are appreciated, thanks

Matt LeClerc

 

[Ring]

Lathes

Well, I'm finally home after a two week refresher course for my real job. now back to the task of what I "want" to be doing

I visited MASE while I was in Toronto. Thank you Roy for the tour and explanation of everything, it was really helpful. It was great to get a little firshand knowledge of the woods, tools, and approach to cue making. I also got to hit with his cue just a little but I was VERY impressed with the hit.

Now back to business I've been scouring ads and have come across an ad for this lathe

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33274

The guy is asking $2800 cdn for it and says its been used once. He says he bought it, then the CM 13X40 lathe and decided once he set them up that he only needed the larger one and wants to sell this one. Now is the 36 inch between centers really enough or should I just scrap that and look for 40 inches between centers. Also, the Lathe MASE showed me last week he had a taper bar attached to the back. Do I need to buy a lathe with a taper attachment ability or can I modify any lathe for this task? Finally, I notice not many cuebuilders buy new machines to use, is there a reason for this? are the new machines (chinese) just not the same quality as old school lathes?

I may be able to work with the price a bit, he has had it for sale for a while. also he bought a stand for it for $450 here in Canada. The closest I can come to that is busybee lathe for around $3700 that I posted initially.

all comments are appreciated, thanks

Matt LeClerc

First off, this is just all just my oppinion. Your gonna find a few people who agree with me, and many who dont.

The current Chiness stuff is not nearly as good as "old iron" My 13x36 Clausing Colechester will out perform almost any of the current Chinesse lathes for sale under 4K. Mine was made in 1969 and I paid $1600 US for the lathe plus lots of attachements (see above on my previous post)

I believe with effort and patience you can find an older lathe, Southbend, Rockwell, Clausing etc. Depending on your location, you willingness to search I firmly believe you can find some good old iron.

Now a word of caution, buying old lathes can be extremly dangerous to you pocket book. You can buy a lathe that is completely shot and be a waste of money. There a few websites that go over what to look for in a lathe. if you have any machinest friends, get them involved.

Places to look? Ebay of course. I have had my best luck with my local newspaper and a online thing called Bargin Hunter. I dont think its any good for Canada.

 

[rhncue]

First off, this is just all just my oppinion. Your gonna find a few people who agree with me, and many who dont.

The current Chiness stuff is not nearly as good as "old iron" My 13x36 Clausing Colechester will out perform almost any of the current Chinesse lathes for sale under 4K. Mine was made in 1969 and I paid $1600 US for the lathe plus lots of attachements (see above on my previous post)

I believe with effort and patience you can find an older lathe, Southbend, Rockwell, Clausing etc. Depending on your location, you willingness to search I firmly believe you can find some good old iron.

Now a word of caution, buying old lathes can be extremly dangerous to you pocket book. You can buy a lathe that is completely shot and be a waste of money. There a few websites that go over what to look for in a lathe. if you have any machinest friends, get them involved.

Places to look? Ebay of course. I have had my best luck with my local newspaper and a online thing called Bargin Hunter. I dont think its any good for Canada.

I disagree a little here. I've got 7 metal cutting lathes both bench and engine. 4 are american lathes and 3 Taiwanese. The two that I use the most are both from Taiwan, a 13X36 Enco with a six jaw set-tru chuck and a 12X40 jet with a collett system. Both of these are extremely accuritt. I've had the Enco for 13 years and after the initial problems that occured when I first got it, which were mostly my fault, it has never let me down in over 12 years. The chuck has a .0003ths. run out that would sure be hard to find on a used American Lathe. Although there can be great buys on American lathes since so many machine shops have went under over the last few years, most have a lot of wear where it counts and that is the bed right near the chuck where most maching is done. Most used metal lathes have had a lot of strain put on them as they have been used cutting metal often in a manufacturing environement which meens they were run for maximum output. This puts much wear on the lathe components. All American lathe producers are now out of business so this often means that if parts are needed you will have a much harder time finding these as the supplies dwindle. Parts can be made but have you ever been quoted a price to have a gear hobbed? It may cost more than you paid for the lathe.
There is no question that new American Lathes were the best in the world but everything wears. Also, finding American lathes with a bed long enough and the spindle hole large enough for making cues you end up with a behemeth that ways tons and is to slow for doing wood. I've got one lathe that is 16x54 and weighs about 3500lbs. and the spindle hole was to small to put a butt thru before I bored it out larger.
The Chinese lathes are good buy for the money in my opinion. They are light but have the needed specs for cue building. Building cues is very light work on a metal lathe. Usually the only metal that is turned are stainless joints and this is no work at all.
The main thing with the import lathes is that they must be set-up and trued upon arrival. They come with an anti rust grease similar to cosmoline everywhere. This must be removed completely from every part and crevis on the lathe or you are asking for many troubles down the road, I know. Once properly cleaned, leveled, spindle and tail stock aligned and gibbs set you end up with a machine that will give many years of trouble free service.
The chinese chuck that comes on the lathe is true enough for cue work but I changed mine to a 6 jaw set-tru as now I don't have to clamp as tightly onto materials to keep them from slipping and the run-out is as close as you want to set it. I changed the motors to 3 phase instead of single phase and put on VDF's so as to have variable speed from 0 to 2500 rpm with just the turn of a knob which is a great help.
I've also got three Atlas metal lathes that I use for sundry operations as I don't believe they run true enough for anything serious. They work well and are set-up for making tubes of deco-rings, cutting off deco-rings to proper thickness and for initial putting tapers on handles and prongs and are left set-up just for these operations.
What I'm getting at is if you have the time ( maybe weeks, maybe years ) to find a good American lathe that suits the need of cue building then go for it, the less money going to China the better but if you don't want to wait for a good American lathe don't rule out an import lathe because you think it is infeariour and won't last.
Dick

 

[Ring]

I disagree a little here. I've got 7 metal cutting lathes both bench and engine. 4 are american lathes and 3 Taiwanese. The two that I use the most are both from Taiwan, a 13X36 Enco with a six jaw set-tru chuck and a 12X40 jet with a collett system. Both of these are extremely accuritt. I've had the Enco for 13 years and after the initial problems that occured when I first got it, which were mostly my fault, it has never let me down in over 12 years. The chuck has a .0003ths. run out that would sure be hard to find on a used American Lathe. Although there can be great buys on American lathes since so many machine shops have went under over the last few years, most have a lot of wear where it counts and that is the bed right near the chuck where most maching is done. Most used metal lathes have had a lot of strain put on them as they have been used cutting metal often in a manufacturing environement which meens they were run for maximum output. This puts much wear on the lathe components. All American lathe producers are now out of business so this often means that if parts are needed you will have a much harder time finding these as the supplies dwindle. Parts can be made but have you ever been quoted a price to have a gear hobbed? It may cost more than you paid for the lathe.
There is no question that new American Lathes were the best in the world but everything wears. Also, finding American lathes with a bed long enough and the spindle hole large enough for making cues you end up with a behemeth that ways tons and is to slow for doing wood. I've got one lathe that is 16x54 and weighs about 3500lbs. and the spindle hole was to small to put a butt thru before I bored it out larger.
The Chinese lathes are good buy for the money in my opinion. They are light but have the needed specs for cue building. Building cues is very light work on a metal lathe. Usually the only metal that is turned are stainless joints and this is no work at all.
The main thing with the import lathes is that they must be set-up and trued upon arrival. They come with an anti rust grease similar to cosmoline everywhere. This must be removed completely from every part and crevis on the lathe or you are asking for many troubles down the road, I know. Once properly cleaned, leveled, spindle and tail stock aligned and gibbs set you end up with a machine that will give many years of trouble free service.
The chinese chuck that comes on the lathe is true enough for cue work but I changed mine to a 6 jaw set-tru as now I don't have to clamp as tightly onto materials to keep them from slipping and the run-out is as close as you want to set it. I changed the motors to 3 phase instead of single phase and put on VDF's so as to have variable speed from 0 to 2500 rpm with just the turn of a knob which is a great help.
I've also got three Atlas metal lathes that I use for sundry operations as I don't believe they run true enough for anything serious. They work well and are set-up for making tubes of deco-rings, cutting off deco-rings to proper thickness and for initial putting tapers on handles and prongs and are left set-up just for these operations.
What I'm getting at is if you have the time ( maybe weeks, maybe years ) to find a good American lathe that suits the need of cue building then go for it, the less money going to China the better but if you don't want to wait for a good American lathe don't rule out an import lathe because you think it is infeariour and won't last.
Dick

You brought up a point that I failed to mention. Your imports are older and where made in Tiawan. There seems to be a large quality gap between lathes made by Enco, HF or grizzly in Tiawan than the same lathe today made in China.

I had an easy time finding my lathe. So maybe I was a lucky gun. But I would have seriously considered an older Tiawanese lathe.

 

[Busbee Cue]

Deluxe Cuesmith

Hello all,

Great thread. The Deluxe Cuesmith is an excellant lathe to build cue's on and it can handle just about any repair that will come along. It is a great machine for it's size if you are working out of your basement or garage. Like the other guy's have mentioned the tooling and supplies will cost alot more than what the lathe will cost. I have spent countless hours working with my lathe and have really enjoyed it. Nothing can get you going better than hours of work ruined by a 2 second mistake.

 

[Busbee Cue]

Deluxe Cuesmith

Foregive me,

I missed one of the most important parts to my post.

Chris is a great guy to deal with. He has been very helpful and patient with alot of my what seemed to be silly questions. Chris has been a very honest person to deal with.

 

[Trueheart]

Lathe

Hi again to everyone,

I've been looking through lots of the previous posts and trying to determine what I need to start making a cue or two. First off I plan to do this as a HOBBY, not a job. I have a good job so I want to do this for fun, to make something that my son ( almost 6 months old ) would be proud to play with and maybe grandchildren years from now. I have enjoyed woodworking for a few years now but I need something to allow me to be more creative and combine my passions.

I have a wood lathe, works well for what it is supposed to do but the more I read the more it seems that I need a metal lathe to do many of the jobs that I would come across even in normal repairs for cues. I have ordered Chris Hightowers cue building book so once I get that it should shed some light for me on the process to get started correctly but I would like to find out what all the experienced cue builders on here would do if they were starting out in my shoes? I really don't mind spending a bit of money on this to get quality equipment, after all where I live most people own snowmobiles that run $10-15,000 to buy plus $20 an hour in gas as their hobby and I have bought and know the value of good equipment for woodworking. I would like to start out as reasonably as possible even so. I would like to know what people think of this lathe

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture?&NETID=1106111030050879616&NTITEM=CT043

I am looking pretty closely at the cuesmith deluxe as well but I don't want something that I will grow out of or that does not or cannot have the capabilities that I want or need. I could probably take a trip down to a grizzly warehouse and buy a lathe from them if they have better offerings for me as its only a 5 hour drive from Toronto.

I guess I'm rambling quite a bit but I'd just like to know if you think a full size metal lathe is the way to go, or a cuesmith or if I should just start by buying a mini lathe and start doing tips and ferrules. It seems as though I'm going to have lots of local business for doing tips at least since no one can do them worth a damn up here. I've already had one poolhall willing to give me all their business and probably more when I go looking. Any advice would be very much appreciated as I will soon have to start convincing my wife that we need another $4000 tool taking up room in our garage

Thanks to all,

Matt LeClerc

>Busybee lathe does not come with training on how to use it especially in tricky thin shaft turning required for cue making. Smart thing to do is buy Delux Cuesmith which comes with instuctions and occupies less space and requires less support tools and machinery the cost of which exceed the cost of the lathe.
>You should post what you decided to buy.

Charlie McKay
True Heart Billiard Cues

 

[Cuetips]

Cue Smith Deluxe

Hi Matt

I live in London Ontario and have been repairing cues ( and have built a couple for my own use)for the past 5-6 years . I am more of a hobbyist, but love to play with wood etc. I have had the Cue Smith Deluxe for the past 5 yers, and can confirm that it is definately a lathe for all aspects of building a cue. I can also confirm that Chris Hightower is a guy you can call, whenever you need some advice. If you want a good close look at the deluxe model, I will be attending the Ontario VNEA torunament in Hamilton this coming February and will be bringing my lathe down to care for the players tips, cleanings , wraps, etc...

Regards
Walter

 

[Strange_Days]

Thanks Walter

I did make the purchase for a deluxe cuesmith. I purchased one with very slight use (less than an hour, almost brand new) from california. It shipped out today actually so I am very eager to get it and start with things. The guy I bought it from is throwing in some other things with it so I am just waiting to get it now to see what else I will need from Chris Hightower. I made a pretty big order from Atlas billiards just before Christmas as well to get all the supplies I think I'll need(I'm sure I'm missing about a hundred things ) to do repairs and a little shaft wood to have a go at. I appreciate your offer but I don't think I will be able to make the VNEA tournament as I am taking a week off to go the the Ontario's in Toronto in a few weeks. Are you going to that tournament as well? if so please send me a PM and let me know and I'll pick your brain a bit while I am there Thanks again,

Matt LeClerc

 

[Cuetips]

Toronto Tourny

If that's the CCS one, I'll be visiting to see some old friends on the Saturday. What's the name of the team you play on?
I'll only be visiting for an hour or two, but I'll try to find you and we can chat.

WP

 

[Strange_Days]

Hi, My team is No Excueses. I have a great team going down this year, can't wait to get there. Walter, if you have the time I look forward to meeting with you.

Mase, if you read this great job on the website I really like how you have all the players listed with there level. but you must have made a mistake... I'm a "B" player now and its costing me more to get in the singles to get my butt kicked I look forward to seeing you down there,

Matt LeClerc