CUES, To Copy or Not to Copy...MY Clarification

Shawn Armstrong said:
I had a guy at league pull a sharking move on me. He sat right in the line of my shot, and as I was shooting the shot, he popped up out of his chair. I missed the shot, and ended up losing the rack. Between racks, he said "I thought you made that 9 ball. I was surprised you missed it". I said "yep, something distracted me on the shot". He then went into a verbal tirade against me, saying I was pulling a move on him. I just kept my mouth shut. He walked around the room, and was telling people the story about how I pulled a move on him. No one believed him. I didn't need to defend myself, because those that know me, did it for me. For those who chose to believe him, their opinion really means nothing to me.

Let your actions speak for you. Tone it down on the defense. You seem to shoot first, and ask questions later. Just keep doing what you're doing, with regards to designing cues. When someone says they think your cues look "fugly", just keep moving on. They probably play with something you think is "fugly" as well. Does it really matter, in the larger scheme of things? If the hot blonde at the bar turns me down for a drink, I don't tear her a new one, and tell her why she's an idiot. I make the same offer to the brunette a few feet away from her.
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It doesn't concern me that some people have negative opinions of the cues Shawn. Like I stated before there's an ass for every seat. Some love the cues and some hate them that's their prerogative. I have never argued against someones opinion. To me that's kind of common sense. What I do "discuss" is those who say something the just isn't true. Especially when it comes to work that I have spent half my life doing as well as making someone else's living.

If I'm ever on "tilt", you can pretty much guarantee someone pushed me there...

As for my actions, well Keith is extremely busy so I believe my "actions" have spoken loudly...
 
skins said:
It doesn't concern me that some people have negative opinions of the cues Shawn. Like I stated before there's an ass for every seat. Some love the cues and some hate them that's their prerogative. I have never argued against someones opinion. To me that's kind of common sense. What I do "discuss" is those who say something the just isn't true. Especially when it comes to work that I have spent half my life doing as well as making someone else's living.

If I'm ever on "tilt", you can pretty much guarantee someone pushed me there...

As for my actions, well Keith is extremely busy so I believe my "actions" have spoken loudly...
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Methinks it does concern you.. otherwise why would you use " there's an ass for every seat". This implies that if you don't agree with me (skins), you're an ass. A better term would be "to each their own". Good luck with the tribe. :p
 
I don't know who this guy is....
I'm just a guy shoots with a Mezz.

You guys need to wear respirators when working with toxic materials.
 
bbb said:
gfys
if you are not sure what i want to say pm me
if you cant answer a question
i would never do business with you
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Im sure what you asked and it is answered in the first post...Read what is in underlined big red letters.... It clearly states my position on ANYONE doing Balabushka clones/copies...


skins said:
Id like to clarify, for the record, MY position and beliefs as it pertains to "copying" cues since some members here on this forum have recently questioned them.

First let me preface by saying my beliefs on this subject have not changed since I've entered the cue manufacturing field over 25 years ago and any post(s) I may have made prior, if seemingly not reflective of this clarification (which I believe are none), are being taken out of context.

That said, I believe that cue makers AND those looking for a maker to build a cue, should ALWAYS refrain from directly copying another CURRENT cue makers work PERIOD. That includes not copying those makers who have purchased a prior business to eclusivley produce cues exactly as original like in the case of Schon OR those that are carrying on the family business which has been passed down like in the case of Szamboti. Barry and his fathers work should be off limits unless Barry alows it.

This takes us to deceased makers such as George Balabushka. I have NO problem with those who want to produce or have other makers reproduce or copy his work since George is no longer with us and his cues are not being made anymore. Someone questioned this by saying that since "Balabushka" was sold to an Asian company they are the only ones who have the right to produce cues that look like Georges cues...WRONG IMO. They purchased the NAME only to have the sole right to put the NAME "Balabushka" on their cues and "call" their cues Balabushka's and thats it. They didn't purchase the business. For those who have had one in your hands, though not a horrible production cue, there is no comparison to the original.

Just as for George, the same goes for ALL other deceased makers whos legacy and design have not been "past along".. Those would include a maker such as Scruggs who among others left us too soon. YAY BAVA!

If you MUST have a specific cue "look" from a current maker and can't get them to make the cue, can't afford, or you just don't want to wait, at the least put enough "spin" on the design that takes the cue away from the original makers design. This goes to the makers taking the order for the cue as well.

I hope this puts a little clarity to what some may have otherwise thought.

"And that's all I have to say about that" (Forrest Gump)
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skins said:
Im sure what you asked and it is answered in the first post...Read what is in underlined big red letters.... It clearly states my position on ANYONE doing Balabushka clones/copies...
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thanks you for your reply....:thumbup:
but isnt tascarella carrying on the tradition like barry szamboti???
 
bbb said:
thanks you for your reply....:thumbup:
but isnt tascarella carrying on the tradition like barry szamboti???
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Carrying on the tradition and having a family business continue are two different things. Pete was never involved with George in building cues nor ever worked with him in his shop from what I gather. My understanding is that the business was never "passed" to Pete nor was it implied that if George past away Pete would inherit it. If so, that may be a different story. Barry on the other hand used to help his father in the shop. He is his fathers namesake and as such inherited the business after his fathers passing. As such he has the sole right to reproduce all prior element arrangements of his father.... IMHO :smile:
 
dom_poppa said:
Very funny.....says the cue collector to the nightly tournament pool player.

I'm the guy they ask, "How does my cue hit?"

;)
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When people ask me I just say "they all hit good", which is almost true.
There has only been a couple of cues that we couldn't get tuned up and playing good,
which includes custom, production, and whatever the hell that Dale Perry guy is supposed to be.
 
skins said:
Carrying on the tradition and having a family business continue are two different things. Pete was never involved with George in building cues nor ever worked with him in his shop from what I gather. My understanding is that the business was never "passed" to Pete nor was it implied that if George past away Pete would inherit it. If so, that may be a different story. Barry on the other hand used to help his father in the shop. He is his fathers namesake and as such inherited the business after his fathers passing. As such he has the sole right to reproduce all prior element arrangements of his father.... IMHO :smile:
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i respect your response and analysis
check your pm
 
i see you do not accept pms
i will tell you a short story that has nothing to do with the thread
in 1988 or 1989
i was contacted that my name was coming up on the gus szamboti list to get a cue
p.s. i was prepared to spend $900-1000 an enormous amount for me at the time)
i was later contacted that gus had passed and the list was no longer valid( very much paraphrased from a faulty memory)
about 20 years later i contacted barry and told him my story and asked if i could go to the head of the line for a cue
he told me he had to think about it
after some reflection he told me that after his dad passed
he started fresh and could not put me to the head of the line
true story to the best of my recollection
timing is everything
 
bbb said:
i see you do not accept pms
i will tell you a short story that has nothing to do with the thread
in 1988 or 1989
i was contacted that my name was coming up on the gus szamboti list to get a cue
p.s. i was prepared to spend $900-1000 an enormous amount for me at the time)
i was later contacted that gus had passed and the list was no longer valid( very much paraphrased from a faulty memory)
about 20 years later i contacted barry and told him my story and asked if i could go to the head of the line for a cue
he told me he had to think about it
after some reflection he told me that after his dad passed
he started fresh and could not put me to the head of the line
true story to the best of my recollection
timing is everything
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Had to be 88 because Gus passed in late 88. If you would have stayed involved in cues you may have found out that after Barry got orginzed he started building cues around 89-90. If you would have contacted him around that time you would already have your cue. I'm sure your thinking in hind sight, waiting 20 years to ask didn't help your case... Dont give up though. You never know what can happen.
 
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Late to the party but this is a never-ending subject.

With few exceptions everyone copies from someone to some degree. Those who are truly out there on their own are often ridiculed for their design choices.

In the fashion industry some feel that the lack of copyright has actually fueled innovation. I would contend that this can be said of the cue industry as well.

My current take on this is biological and sociological. Biologically we are genetic copies of each other with the strongest genes (best designs) being the ones that get copied. Sociologically we are taught from birth to imitate each other and emulate the most successful among us.

And financially, do any of us really eschew opportunities to make money by not copying? If you were a farmer and your neighbor figured out a way to double his yield would you not copy him? If you saw someone at work using a technique to earn more money wouldn't you copy them?

So why do we denigrate those who copy in the "arts"? A factory owner told me once when I chided him about copying that he had 80 people to feed. He said that he wasn't responsible for whomever first came up with a design...his job was to build whatever his customers told him to build. I could argue with him on moral grounds but not on practical ones.

Would any of you do it any differently if the choice was between starvation and a full pantry?

I think that innovators are driven to innovate from inside. Some people just have that drive to create something new, to improve on what exists.....and others just look to survive and thrive by copying what the innovators have done. And even the copiers innovate to some degree.

https://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture

I alternately hate it and love it when we are copied.
 
JB Cases said:
Late to the party but this is a never-ending subject.

With few exceptions everyone copies from someone to some degree. Those who are truly out there on their own are often ridiculed for their design choices.

In the fashion industry some feel that the lack of copyright has actually fueled innovation. I would contend that this can be said of the cue industry as well.

My current take on this is biological and sociological. Biologically we are genetic copies of each other with the strongest genes (best designs) being the ones that get copied. Sociologically we are taught from birth to imitate each other and emulate the most successful among us.

And financially, do any of us really eschew opportunities to make money by not copying? If you were a farmer and your neighbor figured out a way to double his yield would you not copy him? If you saw someone at work using a technique to earn more money wouldn't you copy them?

So why do we denigrate those who copy in the "arts"? A factory owner told me once when I chided him about copying that he had 80 people to feed. He said that he wasn't responsible for whomever first came up with a design...his job was to build whatever his customers told him to build. I could argue with him on moral grounds but not on practical ones.

Would any of you do it any differently if the choice was between starvation and a full pantry?

I think that innovators are driven to innovate from inside. Some people just have that drive to create something new, to improve on what exists.....and others just look to survive and thrive by copying what the innovators have done. And even the copiers innovate to some degree.

https://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture

I alternately hate it and love it when we are copied.
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First, this thread was about clearing up MY thoughts on copying.. That said, to adress your post John:

Sure, I'll agree many get inspiration from something else but to STEAL that inspiration and copy within your own industry explains ones character and direction.

I WOULD NEVER KNOWINGLY COPY WITHIN MY OWN INDUSTRY..... That said, YES John, I would find another avenue to avoid starving. The world needs ditch diggers too.

Creating beyond what exsits is what every maker should strive for but to justify reasons to infringe by directly copying another's work, to make a living, is just another excuse for either being lazy, talentless, or just outright egregious. Either way it's no excuse to take from what another has created whether it's to feed their family or mind.
 
skins said:
First, this thread was about clearing up MY thoughts on copying.. That said, to adress your post John:

Sure, I'll agree many get inspiration from something else but to STEAL that inspiration and copy within your own industry explains ones character and direction.

I WOULD NEVER KNOWINGLY COPY WITHIN MY OWN INDUSTRY..... That said, YES John, I would find another avenue to avoid starving. The world needs ditch diggers too.

Creating beyond what exsits is what every maker should strive for but to justify reasons to infringe by directly copying another's work, to make a living, is just another excuse for either being lazy, talentless, or just outright egregious. Either way it's no excuse to take from what another has created whether it's to feed their family or mind.
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I think when you start any threads with your thoughts it opens the door to other's thoughts as well on the topic.

I understand your position that you would never copy within your industry. That's an admirable position but not a practical one because the definition of industry is a endeavor that produces goods and services at scale for all who need and want those goods and services.

So maybe cuemaking should not be defined as an industry but instead an art form and then people can be pure artists and swear to never copy. But then we have plenty of inspiration in art as well don't we?

What excuse should a man have for being talentless? If a man says you're right I have no design talent but I want to make pool cues what should he do? Not make pool cues? Isn't a plain jane cue also a copy?

Isn't a pool cue itself a copy?

I have put a lot of thought into this subject. It isn't an easy subject to deal with. And there are no easy answers. I also wouldn't want to make a living using other people's decorative designs. There is a case maker who is doing just that with another case maker's signature design and it is disgusting to me.

But if I HAD to make a living and cue case making is what I knew best and xyz cases were the most popular and what was selling then I damn sure would copy that style if it was legal to do so. Before I will starve and deprive my family I will provide the world with another source for the style they love. And knowing that this is inside of me I can't very well condemn others for having it inside them as well.

I am not so "moral" that I would go do menial labor to avoid building perfectly LEGAL items to sell to a worldwide customer base. Sorry but the worlds needs more case makers as well.
 
And Tim, believe me I am not trying to bust your nuts here. But as a designer it was pointed out that while you have not ever copied any individual design of your own for more than one cue maker it is clear that the style has been promiscuously given to several of them. Thus leading to the conclusion by some outside observers that cuemaker B is clearly trying to "copy" cuemaker A's style.

I have done the same by giving my influence to a few case makers and then having their cases identified as ours due to the similarities.
 
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