Current State of the WPBA Tour?

C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It appears there are currently 10 events on the WPBA’s 2024 tournament schedule. This is very encouraging as this represents the most yearly WPBA scheduled tournaments I can recall in over 20 years.

Yes, the quality depth of the fields is admittedly not deep, but it never has been in the 40 years I’ve been following the women’s pro tour, going back to the Jean Balukus days. The $ prize purses are not that impressive either, but at least they are playing.

It would be nice if the WPBA could attract more of the Fargo top 10-15 mostly Asian women players to play regularly, if these players can get their visa’s, if the $ prize purse makes it feasible for them to come here and if the quality of the fields is strong enough. Hopefully that may happen if this tour continues to grow.

I’m curious to hear opinions here on the current state of the women’s tour, particularly from Stu, who has supported the women’s tour forever.
 
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First of all, let me make it clear that I'll have to engage in some speculation here, as I'm not close to the scene.

Still, let's start with your statement that the fields were never deep in WPBA play. That's false. If you go back to about 2000, the 48 player fields consisted of all of these: Allison Fisher, Loree Jon Jones, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Jeantte Lee, Karen Corr, Monica Webb, Helena Thornfeldt, Ga Young Kim, Gerda Hofstatter Gregerson, Robin Bell Dodson, Belinda Bearden Calhoun, Vivian Villareal, Xiaoting Pan, and Jennifer Chen. Eight of them went on to the BCA Hall of Fame, another is a lock to get in and the other five were extremely strong players. That means that about 30% of the field was elite in every event. Perhaps the most interesting thing about these fourteen is that, at the time, they all lived (possibly excepting Xiaoting Pan) in the United States, explaining why each had reasonable facility in keeping up with the America-based tour.

If you go back to 1998, there were 16 WPBA events, but just eight of them were on ESPN, the others unable to attract sufficient venue sponsorship. I was told at the time that the non-televised events were losing money and the televised events were making money. Shortly thereafter, the WPBA opted to stick with the eight moneymakers and discontinue the rest. The WPBA then had just eight events, but the stars of Europe and Asia (excepting the legendary Shin Mei Liu) were fixtures on the tour.

Now, assuming your ten-event statement is right, things have come full circle and they've got more than eight events once again. I couldn't be happier for the women regarding this growth. Unfortunately, the fields don't routinely feature all the best of America, Europe and Asia. One big reason is that the top women players live all over the world now. International travel isn't cheap, so only a few opt to make the trips to events outside their own stomping grounds. Even Han Yu, in my opinion the best woman player in the world, typically skips WPBA events.

It's nice to see the WPBA growing, but it will take even more growth to make the tour sufficiently lucrative that the world's best will gather to compete the way they did in 2000. I doubt the visa issue is a major one as far as accomplishing that. I think it's all about the money.
 
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sjm said:
First of all, let me make it clear that I'll have to enage in some speculation here, as I'm not close to the scene.

Still, let's start with your statement that the fields were never deep in WPBA play. That's false. If you go back to about 2000, the 48 player fields consisted of all of these: Allison Fisher, Loree Jon Jones, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Jeantte Lee, Karen Corr, Monica Webb, Helena Thornfeldt, Ga Young Kim, Gerda Hofstatter Gregerson, Robin Bell Dodson, Belinda Bearden Calhoun, Vivian Villareal, Xiaoting Pan, and Jennifer Chen. Eight of them went on to the BCA Hall of Fame, another is a lock to get in and the other five were extremely strong players. That means that about 30% of the field was elite in every event. Perhaps the most interesting thing about these fourteen is that, at the time, they all lived in the United States, explaining why each had reasonable facility in keeping up with the America-based tour.

If you go back to 1998, there were 16 WPBA events, but just eight of them were on ESPN, the others unable to attract sufficient venue sponsorship. I was told at the time that the non-televised events were losing money and the televised events were making money. Shortly thereafter, the WPBA opted to stick with the eight moneymakers and discontinue the rest. The WPBA then had just eight events, but the stars of Europe and Asia (excepting the legendary Shin Mei Liu) were fixtures on the tour.

Now, assuming your ten-event statement is right, things have come full circle and they've got more than eight events once again. I couldn't be happier for the women regarding this growth. Unfortunately, the fields don't routinely feature all the best of America, Europe and Asia. One big reason is that the top women players live all over the world now. International travel isn't cheap, so only a few opt to make the trips to events outside their own stomping grounds. Even Han Yu, in my opinion the best woman player in the world, typically skips WPBA events.

It's nice to see the WPBA growing, but it will take even more growth to make the tour sufficiently lucrative that the world's best will gather to compete the way they did in 2000. I doubt the visa issue is a major one as far as accomplishing that. I think it's all about the money.
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Final sentence says it ALL: its all about the benjamins. Travel, locations, dates are all issues for sure but a big sponsor with $$ to spend is what they need.
 
I would love to go to one of these events. They never come anywhere near me in MA. They used to go to mohegan sun in CT, and basketball hall of fame in MA regularly
 
The cost and time to attract a new male player is a lot cheaper than attracting a new female player.

There should be more online promotion for why the top pro women should play billiards again. People are willing to pay them the money to get them to show up being the main reason. Female driven entertainment is the next great economic engine.

Governments want women to be good shooters, with steady hands, and comfortable in high pressure situations. Women can benefit greatly as a population if the right investor gave them the money to build a sustainable women's development billiard pathway. Women need their Matchroom and Barry Hearn.

Recommended investors are recruiting, logistics, hospitality and beverage firms, pool players are strategically located to be a decentralized workforce. If I didn't know anyone in Brighton Beach then I can find a women owned and operated billiard bar and club Skyline Billiards.

If anyone wanted to develop real estate globally. Pool players are scouts, Pool players can do surveys. Women pool players in specific countries have access and insights no government report will ever have.

Support women and say it publicly and make demands for them.

Pay the pros their worth. Why does Jenn Barretta make more money selling beers and table time instead of killing government sponsored shooters in a tourney?

America's best cueists have been shelved for second rate male shooters that can barely make a nineball, led by a balding washed up team leader.
 
I think this may be a glass is half empty/full analysis. I have some friends that play in these, they spend a lot of money and sacrifice to travel and compete. It's a true passion for them. Although none of them are winning them they love participating.

So although the "quality depth of the fields is admittedly not deep" at least it exists. The only way we will see any of these players make a shocking win over a highly ranked opponent is if they compete, and we all love to see the rare occasion when an upset happens.
 
sjm said:
First of all, let me make it clear that I'll have to engage in some speculation here, as I'm not close to the scene.

Still, let's start with your statement that the fields were never deep in WPBA play. That's false. If you go back to about 2000, the 48 player fields consisted of all of these: Allison Fisher, Loree Jon Jones, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Jeantte Lee, Karen Corr, Monica Webb, Helena Thornfeldt, Ga Young Kim, Gerda Hofstatter Gregerson, Robin Bell Dodson, Belinda Bearden Calhoun, Vivian Villareal, Xiaoting Pan, and Jennifer Chen. Eight of them went on to the BCA Hall of Fame, another is a lock to get in and the other five were extremely strong players. That means that about 30% of the field was elite in every event. Perhaps the most interesting thing about these fourteen is that, at the time, they all lived (possibly excepting Xiaoting Pan) in the United States, explaining why each had reasonable facility in keeping up with the America-based tour.

If you go back to 1998, there were 16 WPBA events, but just eight of them were on ESPN, the others unable to attract sufficient venue sponsorship. I was told at the time that the non-televised events were losing money and the televised events were making money. Shortly thereafter, the WPBA opted to stick with the eight moneymakers and discontinue the rest. The WPBA then had just eight events, but the stars of Europe and Asia (excepting the legendary Shin Mei Liu) were fixtures on the tour.

Now, assuming your ten-event statement is right, things have come full circle and they've got more than eight events once again. I couldn't be happier for the women regarding this growth. Unfortunately, the fields don't routinely feature all the best of America, Europe and Asia. One big reason is that the top women players live all over the world now. International travel isn't cheap, so only a few opt to make the trips to events outside their own stomping grounds. Even Han Yu, in my opinion the best woman player in the world, typically skips WPBA events.

It's nice to see the WPBA growing, but it will take even more growth to make the tour sufficiently lucrative that the world's best will gather to compete the way they did in 2000. I doubt the visa issue is a major one as far as accomplishing that. I think it's all about the money.
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Stu, I appreciate your prompt and honest reply on this topic. We will have to agree to differ on our opinions as to the quality depth of the fields . Even 20+ years ago, Allison and Karen between them were likely winning 75% of all the tournaments. Before the mid 1990s, post Jean and before Allison appeared, the previous decade was dominated by only a half a dozen of the players that you mentioned - Loree Jon, Ewa, Robin, Belinda, Vivian and Jeanette.

Back then and still now, over half of the fields are made up of sub 600 Fargo rated players that are dead money as far as their chances of advancing beyond the first 3-4 rounds of the draws.

Regardless, the WPPA events are very well organized, run very smoothly, and are enjoyable watch for the spectators, outside of the early round lopsided matchups. It’s very clear there is a camaraderie and fellowship among all the WPBA players that never has and never will exist among the men pros. There are also some up-and-coming young American players, like Savannah, that has brought a new level of excitement and interest to these events.
 
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I am a school teacher I can give Jenn Barretta $1000 for the next event, and then my mom kills me.

How do other sports group fund raise? I think they sell owner's boxes or tables at events.

Why can't this be done for female American pro pool players?

We all pay $40 get a free photo signed and then she goes wins titles and establishes US dominance.

I will pay for this. But I need more people to pay. Why are men cheap when supporting women in battle for the history of the nation?

I am Filipino so I don't understand all the problems with equal rights and women being property, locked in a pool room when she should be free and out in the killing fields.

I think $1K handles the transportation to and from the airport. I can't finance other expenses I am small donor.

I will pay to witness first hand US billiard history for women internationally, specifically Jenn Barretta become the leading world champion similar to how Allison reigned. But are wealthy men really too cheap to pay for billiard content? I am poor.

Imagine all the young women having Jenn Barretta as their role model and Allison Fisher at the same time. Its a multigenerational sport.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
Stu, I appreciate your prompt and honest reply on this topic. We will have to agree to differ on our opinions as to the quality depth of the fields . Even 20+ years ago, Allison and Karen between them were likely winning 75% of all the tournaments. Before the mid 1990s, post Jean and before Allison appeared, the previous decade was dominated by only a half a dozen of the players that you mentioned - Loree Jon, Ewa, Robin, Belinda, Vivian and Jeanette.
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You pooh-pooh a list of great players, all of whom won WPBA titles, and every single one of which would have beaten Savannah Easton giving her the seven, and yet you want me to get excited by the presence of a 600 Fargo player with potential. Please. You think that the simultaneous presence of two of the five best players of all time means that the others I mentioned weren't champions of the highest order. You are delusional. Let me know when Savannah starts mass producing significant titles.

You generalized that the fields were weak in the forty years in which you have watched WPBA play. I didn't suggest that today's fields are deep. You obviously weren't watching very closely back in the day.
 
sjm said:
You pooh-pooh a list of great players, all of whom won WPBA titles, and every single one of which would have beaten Savannah Easton giving her the seven, and yet you want me to get excited by the presence of a 600 Fargo player with potential. Please. You think that the simultaneous presence of two of the five best players of all time means that the others I mentioned weren't champions of the highest order. You are delusional. Let me know when Savannah starts mass producing significant titles.

You generalized that the fields were weak in the forty years in which you have watched WPBA play. I didn't suggest that today's fields are deep. You obviously weren't watching very closely back in the day.
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Stu, don’t be so tough on Savannah, she’s only 15 years old! Pardon my ignorance, but I’m recalling Jean, Loree Jon and possibly Tiffany Nelson, as the only American women that come to mind as playing on the pro tour at her age.

How many Fargorate 700+ level WPBA female pro players do you think there would have been in 1990 compared to the 20+ that there are now? I’m guessing no more than 1/3 of those 20 currently play on the WPPA tour.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
Stu, don’t be so tough on Savannah, she’s only 15 years old! Pardon my ignorance, but I’m recalling Jean and Loree Jon as the only two American women that come to mind as playing on the pro tour at her age. How many Fargorate 700+ level WPBA female pro players do you think there would have been in 1990 compared to the 20+ that there are now?
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I reviewed 2000, not 1990, which was much closer to the inception of the WPBA and two years before the WPBA Classic Tour, which would become the tour now known as the WPBA.

Actually, Jean was already retired in 1990, but she was the only 700+ player of the 1980s. Robin, Ewa and Loree Jon were probably about 675.

I'm not knocking Savannah, whose game I have watched, but she has got a long way to go. I wish her the best in her pursuit of excellence. At her current speed, I don't feel she'd have been a top 16 seed in 2000 in WPBA play, but she may be counted among the world's elite one day. We shall see, but for now, she's not in the world Top 100 based on Fargo and is the 43rd rated American based on Fargo.

To be fair, the young would-be champions usually show it early. Jean won the US Open 14.1 at the age of 13. Loree Jon was a world champion at age 15. Siming Chen won the China Open at 16. Ewa Mataya was European 14.1 champion at 17. Ga Young Kim was a world champion by the age of 21. Han Yu was world champion at 21. Jeanette gained the world #1 ranking at the age of 23. Gerda Hofstatter was world champion by 24.

Yes, Savannah is young, but do you feel that Savannah is on a track to equal or surpass the greats of yesteryear? I haven't yet seen anything from her that would lead me to believe so, but I'd like to be wrong on this one.
 
sjm said:
I reviewed 2000, not 1990, which was much closer to the inception of the WPBA and two years before the WPBA Classic Tour, which would become the tour now known as the WPBA.

Actually, Jean was already retired in 1990, but she was the only 700+ player of the 1980s. Robin, Ewa and Loree Jon were probably about 675.

I'm not knocking Savannah, whose game I have watched, but she has got a long way to go. I wish her the best in her pursuit of excellence. At her current speed, I don't feel she'd have been a top 16 seed in 2000 in WPBA play, but she may be counted among the world's elite one day. We shall see, but for now, she's not in the world Top 100 based on Fargo and is the 43rd rated American based on Fargo.

To be fair, the young would-be champions usually show it early. Jean won the US Open 14.1 at the age of 13. Loree Jon was a world champion at age 15. Siming Chen won the China Open at 16. Ewa Mataya was European 14.1 champion at 17. Ga Young Kim was a world champion by the age of 21. Han Yu was world champion at 21. Jeanette gained the world #1 ranking at the age of 23. Gerda Hofstatter was world champion by 24.

Yes, Savannah is young, but do you feel that Savannah is on a track to equal or surpass the greats of yesteryear? I haven't yet seen anything from her that would lead me to believe so, but I'd like to be wrong on this one.
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Honestly Stu, I haven’t watched Savannah play enough. You would certainly by a far better judge of that young of a player’s ceiling than I ever would.

Playing as much as she can against top competition, if she doesn’t burn out, she should certainly improve significantly over the next 5 years. If she’s not in the top 30 in the world by then, she likely won’t ever make it to the top 10, but who knows.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Playing as much as she can against top competition, if she doesn’t burn out, she should certainly improve significantly over the next 5 years. If she’s not in the top 30 in the world by then, she likely won’t ever make it to the top 10, but who knows.
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Yes, but as you've noted, the WPBA is not, presently, attracting the most elite internationals, so whether Savannah will get the seasoning she needs is far from clear. She'll likely need to get that experience and seasoning against the best in things like the China Open, the World 9-ball Championships and the World 10-ball Championships, or she could take the Karen Corr route of competing against the men as often as possible. Let's see how she proceeds.
 
sjm said:
Yes, but as you've noted, the WPBA is not, presently, attracting the most elite internationals, so whether Savannah will get the seasoning she needs is far from clear. She'll likely need to get that experience and seasoning against the best in things like the China Open, the World 9-ball Championships and the World 10-ball Championships, or she could take the Karen Corr route of playing against the men as often as possible. Let's see how she proceeds..
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I've seen her on vid only. She plays well but nowhere near good enough to beat the top asian players.
 
garczar said:
I've seen her on vid only. She plays well but nowhere near good enough to beat the top asian players.
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LOL, she's giving up over 100 Fargo points to anyone in the Top 20 and at least 50 Fargo points to the Top 64. She's not one of the world's Top 100.

Comparing her to Han Yu is like comparing Shaun Wilkie to Josh Filler.
 
sjm said:
LOL, she's giving up over 100 Fargo points to anyone in the Top 20 and at least 50 Fargo points to the Top 64. She's not one of the world's Top 100.

Comparing her to Han Yu is like comparing Shaun Wilkie to Josh Filler.
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Stu, what do you think Savannah’s Fargo points would be 3 or even 2 years ago? There’s no way to know how much her game can continue to ascend the next 5 years.

I’m certainly not comparing her to the future potential everyone saw in Joshua Filler at that age or in his case even younger, but she no doubt possesses the most potential of any American female player at her age.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Stu, what do you think Savannah’s Fargo points would be 3 or even 2 years ago? There’s no way to know how much her game can continue to ascend the next 5 years.

I’m certainly not comparing her to the future potential everyone saw in Joshua Filler at that age or in his case even younger, but she no doubt possesses the most potential of any American female player at her age.
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Yes, she has the most potential of any American player her age, but how much is that saying? No American player of under 50 years is found in the World's Top 40 based on Fargo.

Years ago, Briana Miller certainly played comparably at age 16 to where Savannah plays now, but she's now Fargo 670 and over 100 points below Han Yu. Though a capable player, neither she nor similarly regarded teen at the time April Larson have blossomed into a top player.

Potential and performance are two very different things. Perhaps Savannah is about to wow us, and I'd enjoy every minute of it.

The highest American Fargo is Jennifer Barretta's 681 (yes, I know Allison Fisher is American, too). Let's see if Savannah catches her by the age of 18.
 
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sjm said:
Yes, she has the most potential of any American player her age, but how much is that saying? No American player of under 50 is found in the World's Top 40 based on Fargo.

Years ago, Briana Miller certainly played comparably at age 16 to where Savannah plays now, but she's now Fargo 670 and over 100 points below Han Yu. Though a capable player, neither she nor similarly regarded teen at the time April Larson have blossomed into a top player.

Potential and performance are two very different things. Perhaps Savannah is about to wow us, and I'd enjoy every minute of it.

The highest American Fargo is Jennifer Barretta's 681 (yes, I know Allison Fisher is American, too). Let's see if Savannah catches her by the age of 18.
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Curious if anyone has ever tried to figure out an approximate Fargo rating for players of previous eras, male or female, before they had Fargorate, such as Jean Balukus?
 
ChrisinNC said:
Curious if anyone has ever tried to figure out an approximate Fargo rating for players of previous eras, male or female, before they had Fargorate, such as Jean Balukus?
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Probably a meaningless pursuit, leaving us with the eye test. Because she was never really pushed and could win routinely with the skills she had, Jean really never had the incentive to add skills or drive herself crazy on the practice table. Also, don't forget that half of Jean's career came in the straight pool era.

Allison Fisher had Karen Corr to push her to her highest level, which made Allison a stronger player. Jean never had this. That's why, in my view, Allison was a better nine baller than Jean.

My guess, based on the eye test, is that Jean's 9ball Fargo was around 720, but had she needed to, she could have played to 760.
 
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