Custom vs. production cues

mantis99 said:
I agree that one needs to hit a lot of balls with different cues to understand what they like. The difficulty is that not many people have access to a number of different cues of good quality to decide what they like. I currently have 3 cues that I use (none of significant quality). One is a $30 walmart graphite cue that I use to break with. The second is a brand called "Viper" which I have never heard of before. It is my bro-in-laws cue that he paid approx $100 at pool-a-rama for that he leaves at my house. The other is a $100 "players" cue that I have. None of these are expensive, but they are different. The players and walmart cues are well balanced throughout. I play the best with the players cue, but it seems to have the most resonance with hard hits of all the cues. Surprisingly enough, the walmart cue has a very similar feel and seems to play nearly just as well, even where spin is concerned (maybe even just as well, bit I have a hard time saying it is as good as my othe cue). The Viper has the most solid hit, but is very shaft heavy. It feels very smooth to me, but also very different. It always feels good to play with it, but when Ipick the players cue back up, I always prefer its overall feel in balance. That is the extent of my experience. I am sur ei have hit thousands of balls with these cues. Does that give me enough to know what I want? I am not sure. Would a $500 cue outperform the walmart cue by a lot. It sounds like a ridiculous question, but the other 2 cues don't, and in the end, I play just as well with it as anything else. I am certainly no pro, but I will run 15 fairly open balls on the table 50% of the time, so I am not a complete hack either. A lot of my question stems from this example. IF the walmart cue is so close to 2 $100 cues in playability (certainly not look or even joint), can spending $500 or more really help that much. Maybe it is unfair to use $100 cues as any kind of benchmark, but it is all I have. I really do not care about appearance at this time, just playability, so if it is not going to reasonably improbe my consistency and level of play, it probably is not worth it to me. Sorry for the length of the post!
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All I can tell you is that from my experience, the difference between a $100-200 production cue and a $500 cue from a custom cue maker or a high-quality "production" cue like Schon is like the difference between driving a Geo and a BMW. If there are any players you know who play with high-end cues, see if they'll let you hit a few balls with their babies. Certain cues may not be to your liking, but if you hit with a few different cues you WILL feel what I'm talking about.

At $500 for a custom/high-quality production cue, you will not be paying for ornamentation at all because these cues begin at about that price level, and thus there would be little to no ornamentation. You will be paying for carefully selected and aged wood, quality materials, workmanship, and of course, a little premium for reputation. It is when you go beyond the $500 mark that you begin to pay for the inlays, exotic woods, and the many hours of work that go into creating these artistic masterpieces.
 
skins said:
i'm sorry chris but you are a little misinformed. when it comes to the production of cues, just about all cues are basically made the same way. they're all turned, assembled and inlaid in very similar ways. there is no such thing as a computer assembled and inlaid cue, at least not a machine i'm aware of. as far as the other computer controlled machinery and non computer controlled, they all function exactly the same.
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i didnt mean , that the computer does everything.. i meant that the computer cuts the pocket on the cue and then cuts out the corresponding piece that goes in the pocket.. thats not very difficult...

and i know that there are some custom cue makers who use cnc, i am not against it.. most that do use it, didnt start out that way.. and like you said they prefected it to a level that a production cue just cant compete..

and some of the higher end cue makers who do use cnc, must be doing something right because they bring in high dollars for lots of cues...

and yes.. i do understand and i do believe there is a difference between a custom cue made with cnc and a production cue..

i am not knocking anybody here..

chris
 
ChrisOnline said:
i didnt mean , that the computer does everything.. i meant that the computer cuts the pocket on the cue and then cuts out the corresponding piece that goes in the pocket.. thats not very difficult...chris
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no. a computer does not cut the pockets. a machine cuts the pockets with the right tool(s), the same as any other method. the computer only guides the same type machines to make these same "motions", that would have been done by hand, in a more controlled and specific way. these motions are the same as would be done with physical patterns, created by these same computer controlled machines or ones created with older methods (bill shick), by the movement of the makers hand to produce the output. with these motions in the "hands" of the maker there is a greater chance for a myriad of issues that can arise not short of the issue with cutter breakage because of the speed of the movements through the pattern while guiding the stylus with your hand to create certain design work. computer numerical control is just another tool for milling more accurate and allows for greater flexibility to the maker to execute his more intricate artwork . chris with all respect i think you need to do more research, talk to makers like bill stroud, ernie gutierez, joel hercek, bob manzino, joe gold, keith josey, richard chudy, thomas wayne, leonard bludworth, jerry mcworter, tony scianella, bruce kuhn, richard black, paul mottey, james white, and many others who use this technology to create design work on a cue canvas. what i'm trying to tell you is that the use of this machinery is not in any way a negative to the production or future value of a cue that warrants it use. the fact that you say "that's not very difficult" proves you have to do this reasearch. i promise you will learn a thing or two.
 
owning a production cue can get real embarrassing when several people play with the same one on the same night, at which point it becomes a conspiracy.
 
bruin70 said:
owning a production cue can get real embarrassing when several people play with the same one on the same night, at which point it becomes a conspiracy.
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What is even more embarrassing is losing with your $1500 plus custom cue to someone with a $200 production cue..;)
 
justnick said:
What is even more embarrassing is losing with your $1500 plus custom cue to someone with a $200 production cue..;)
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Yeah and then the $200 production cue gets taken down by the $80 import cue. Who in turn sells out to the guy playing off the wall.:D :D
It ain't the arrow its the Indian.:cool:
 
justnick said:
What is even more embarrassing is losing with your $1500 plus custom cue to someone with a $200 production cue..;)
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I think this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read. Just because I play with an expensive cue doesn't mean that I think I'm good, it just means that I like nice cues. I can tell you I've never assumed anything about the way someone plays based on the type of cue they are playing with. Okay, if someone is using one of those $15 adjustable washer cues then I'll probably assume I'm better but that's about 3 steps down from a typical house cue.
 
bruin70 said:
owning a production cue can get real embarrassing when several people play with the same one on the same night, at which point it becomes a conspiracy.
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Never ran into that problem with my schon.
If some dude is smart enough to own a cue similar to mine, I'd congratulate them for making such a smart purchase.

If someone is so insecure that--HEAVEN FORBID-- somebody else might have a cue similar to theirs, then these folks pay the 4-digit dollars to own a cue designed just for them. They pay for their insecurity. They figure if they can't "wow" us with their game, they'll "wow" us with their stick.

But MANY of these folks then find out the hard way that owning a custom cue doesn't elevate their game to a higher level, it just makes them a target for the higher level players who can run racks with a broomstick...

Rick P.
 
on point guy.. good call !!

poolpro said:
[
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So these cuemakers shouldn't use computers and cell phones, and should hide out on a mountaintop and carve out cues out of raw trees to be respected, I guess.

My opinion is that anyone who uses the aid of a computer to write is not a REAL writer and therefore whatever they say is irrelevant! :D

Hey, I think I see a NEW market to tap into. AMISH CUES. Any REAL cuemaker doesn't need electricity. .
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Yeah!! ... Cause that is what I meant by posting that pic!!!!!!..
NOT!!!.... get real.....
 
skins said:
no. a computer does not cut the pockets. a machine cuts the pockets with the right tool(s), the same as any other method. the computer only guides the same type machines to make these same "motions", that would have been done by hand, in a more controlled and specific way. these motions are the same as would be done with physical patterns, created by these same computer controlled machines or ones created with older methods (bill shick), by the movement of the makers hand to produce the output. with these motions in the "hands" of the maker there is a greater chance for a myriad of issues that can arise not short of the issue with cutter breakage because of the speed of the movements through the pattern while guiding the stylus with your hand to create certain design work. computer numerical control is just another tool for milling more accurate and allows for greater flexibility to the maker to execute his more intricate artwork . chris with all respect i think you need to do more research, talk to makers like bill stroud, ernie gutierez, joel hercek, bob manzino, joe gold, keith josey, richard chudy, thomas wayne, leonard bludworth, jerry mcworter, tony scianella, bruce kuhn, richard black, paul mottey, james white, and many others who use this technology to create design work on a cue canvas. what i'm trying to tell you is that the use of this machinery is not in any way a negative to the production or future value of a cue that warrants it use. the fact that you say "that's not very difficult" proves you have to do this reasearch. i promise you will learn a thing or two.
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yo... APPARENTLY you only read the first part of my post.. and i dont appreciate you taking what i am saying literly.. i *do* know that the computer itself controls the machine.. and i didnt mean its not very difficult to do.. i meant it makes making mass produced cues not very hard..

when i said a cnc cue not being worth as much.. i was speaking about the production cues.. as i said earlier, in this thread, schons are made with great materials.. but they just dont command the price a basic custom cue from a well known cuemaker does... i have always owned schons and i love them.. but the bad resale value hurts them alot.. hell.. you cant even get close to retail on selling one.. and if i was to offer my paul mottey up for sale for what i paid for it or even more.. somebody would buy it in a heartbeat...

now.. if you would take the time and read the rest of my post.. you will see exactly what i said.. and again.. i will say that i do want most of the cues you listed and i do know they use cnc in alot of them..

just so you dont miss it or skip over it.. i will quote what i said in the bottom of this message..

I was only trying to help.. and i dont appreciate you jumping all over me for not being over technical.. you are deffinatly a well respected guy in the forum, and i for one gave you alot of positive rep for alot of your posts.. so after i am done writing this post, i will no longer participate in this conversation..

thanks..
chris
and i know that there are some custom cue makers who use cnc, i am not against it.. most that do use it, didnt start out that way.. and like you said they prefected it to a level that a production cue just cant compete..

and some of the higher end cue makers who do use cnc, must be doing something right because they bring in high dollars for lots of cues...
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TrickyRicky said:
But MANY of these folks then find out the hard way that owning a custom cue doesn't elevate their game to a higher level, it just makes them a target for the higher level players who can run racks with a broomstick...

Rick P.
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funny you should say that, as i have made a few $$ using a broomstick. and it was a plain jane production model too, no fancy inlays.:D
M.C.
 
curlyscues said:
funny you should say that, as i have made a few $$ using a broomstick. and it was a plain jane production model too, no fancy inlays.:D
M.C.
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Yah, I hear yuh!

I stomped Harry Potter and his "Nimbus 2000" broomstick with a house broomstick. Sent him home flying and crying:D

Rick P.
 
rackem said:
Yeah and then the $200 production cue gets taken down by the $80 import cue. Who in turn sells out to the guy playing off the wall.:D :D
It ain't the arrow its the Indian.:cool:
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That depends on the the arrows that are in the Teepee to begin with. :D
 
ChrisOnline said:
I was only trying to help.. and i dont appreciate you jumping all over me for not being over technical.. you are deffinatly a well respected guy in the forum, and i for one gave you alot of positive rep for alot of your posts.. so after i am done writing this post, i will no longer participate in this conversation..

thanks..
chris
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don't take it the wrong way chris. i wasn't "jumping" all over you. i was only commenting and elaborating on the "it's not that tough" and "the computer does the inlay and pocketing" (paraphrased) point,. that's all. it wasn't meant to be condescending in any way. i apologize if you took it that way. just trying to egu-ma-kate. :)
 
zeeder said:
I think this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read. Just because I play with an expensive cue doesn't mean that I think I'm good, it just means that I like nice cues. I can tell you I've never assumed anything about the way someone plays based on the type of cue they are playing with. Okay, if someone is using one of those $15 adjustable washer cues then I'll probably assume I'm better but that's about 3 steps down from a typical house cue.
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I think what is asinine is you taking that so personal it was just a statement. I've seen many times a person walk up to a table with there expensive custom cue,Top dollar case and and go two and out.I think some people rather look good then play good..

Please don't take this wrong,theres nothing wrong with wanting nice things in life we work hard we deserve it ....
 
skins said:
don't take it the wrong way chris. i wasn't "jumping" all over you. i was only commenting and elaborating on the "it's not that tough" and "the computer does the inlay and pocketing" (paraphrased) point,. that's all. it wasn't meant to be condescending in any way. i apologize if you took it that way. just trying to egu-ma-kate. :)
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skins.. i appreciate your apology.. i am sorry that i took it that way.. it just got that feeling... and i do agree.. all those people you mentioned are master cue builders, and i would love to own any of their cues no matter how they made them.. even dennis searing uses a cnc machine.. when i said the computer does the inlay and the pocketing, i meant the computer controls the cnc machine to cut the pocket on the cue, and then the cnc cuts the actual inlay itself perfect and exact fit to the pocket it made on the cue..

i do understand how it works.. i should have been alittle more clear about saying that when i said about the cues not being worth as much.. i should have said right then i was talking about production cues.. honestly, imagine if schon went back to making every cue with hand spliced or recut and milled points.. it would probably set back production by alot.. but i feel it would raise their value up.. and they would sell alot more.. (price would go way up)


and then cues like lucasi, falcon and predator.. the cnc machine and those lathes that can make 10 cues at a time makes it easier for them to make a thousand cues a day... there deffinatly isnt as good quality control in knowing which cue is going to be a bad one.. i dont feel there is the same problems when making 1 cue at a time..

chris
 
justnick said:
I think what is asinine is you taking that so personal it was just a statement. I've seen many times a person walk up to a table with there expensive custom cue,Top dollar case and and go two and out.I think some people rather look good then play good..

Please don't take this wrong,theres nothing wrong with wanting nice things in life we work hard we deserve it ....
Click to expand...

Seeing that this topic comes up about once a week, it's clear that somebody thinks there is something wrong with it. ;)
 
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