Customer furnished material
- Thread starter rhncue
- Start date
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Jer,
your ivory seems nicely priced...thank you for being resonable even though I dont have one of your cues.
No, I wouldnt bring a piece of meat to a restaurant to cook for me, but that is a poor analogy that is not fitted to the cue industry. We all KNOW that steak houses make extreme profit margin on their steaks... Should we also embrace it as customers being gouged on ivory / moori prices just because we have no choice?
The reason people view cues loaded with ivory as being worth so much is due to the fact cuemakers have made them that way buy charging/ gouging customers with outlandish ivory prices. Prices may have gone up with respect to ivory - but still you can call warther up and get joint stock at 30 an inch and butt stock at 80 an inch. Cuemakers charge 150 a joint or 250 a buttcap because of 'risk'. All I am saying is that if the customer is willing to take the risk...and the cuemaker is willing to do the work and charge a marginal price for extra machining work - whats the harm?
as far as cuemakers I have used and will use with my own ivory...thats between me and them.
just my opinion and experience.
Ryan
Birk1 said:
Actually, the reason that ivory parts for a cue are so pricey is because of the knowledge it takes to work it properly. Not to mention the fact that this is a natural piece of material and there are so many things that can go wrong with it. You are correct in that he made a bad analogy with the steak. You can go anywhere and have a steak cooked, and if it's not the way you like it, you can get another at no cost, which ends up costing the restaurant a total of maybe $5-10 including all of the labor and overhead.
Now, on the other hand, take a car mechanic. Find out how much the parts cost as opposed to how much they charge you for labor. You aren't paying for the part, and you aren't being gouged. You are paying for the fact that they have the equipment to diagnose what's wrong with your car, and the expertise to fix the car.
Take the computer industry. It's going to cost you $65 dollars just for me to grace your door with my presence, even if I'm there for 5 minutes to plug in your power cord on your monitor because it wiggled loose. I have all of the parts in stock to fix any issue, and get you up and going in no time flat, even if I have to replace the whole stinkin' thing.
Now let's go back to cuemakers. They have the ivory in house, it has acclimated, and they have tested and watched carefully to make sure that it has the proper moisture content, and worked to make sure that the $80 1" piece will have as little trouble as possible in their installation. They also have to have the knowledge of when to stop machining a piece of ivory so it doesn't overheat and crack. And wow, you mean that machine over there cost how many thousands of dollars? Whoops, there must have been a small soft spot on one side as it has cracked anyway. No big deal, I'll just replace it for free for the customer, another $80 down the drain, no sweat. I'm sure Mr. Warther will replace it for us under warranty, right? Oh, guess not. A piece of ivory from outside the shop comes from an unknown source (unless you trust what everyone tells you explicitly), and is usually purchased right before the work is to begin.
I think this is about potential for damaged reputation, time lost if the customers parts are not good quality and the customer trying to get a higher priced cue for less money.merylane said:i agree.... what the hell difference does it make where it comes from?
its got to come from somewhere?
if its quality is good enough....... its good enough.
enless of course your trying to sell certain materials??????
the tip thingomg
I don't mind using customers parts but as others have stated if a piece cracks or has a blemish you have to fix it and will likely not get paied to do so. Most cuemakers price their materials and labor based on value of a specific material and labor time involved to make/install each piece and the ammount of risk involved in making each piece. Ivory in relation to phenolic is far more expensive and far more likely to develop problems. Also as others have said, even if he says to the customer you are accepting all responsability for the ivory, it if cracks the customer will likely blame the cuemaker.
I still have instroke tips. Last one standing, top of the world ma.Sheldon said:Yeah, those prices were at least 4 years old. Back when I paid was paying $20 each for moori tips in small quantities. Your post prompted me to update it. I still had Instroke tips listed!
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Ok that was not the rush I thought it would be. It's late and I'm going to bed.Chris Byrne said:
Reputation is everything in this business and even IF you spell out the terms to use their parts, when something goes wrong, the customer will be upset. The cuemaker gets blamed because he doesn't warranty it, EVEN THOUGH it was agreed that it was at the customer's risk. That customer will show everyone and their dog that the cue is now worthless. At the end of the day, it is the cuemaker's name on that cue. This business is very small and competitive so word of mouth is important.
There is a reason cues are priced the way they are. It is not just materials and labor. I do not think it is fair for a customer to look at ivory as $80/inch and expect that price plus a little machining time. It does not work that way. You are paying for a highly specialized artist to create a functional work of art. If it is something worth having, then it is something worth paying for. This is not gouging.
There is a reason cues are priced the way they are. It is not just materials and labor. I do not think it is fair for a customer to look at ivory as $80/inch and expect that price plus a little machining time. It does not work that way. You are paying for a highly specialized artist to create a functional work of art. If it is something worth having, then it is something worth paying for. This is not gouging.
ratcues said:
I agree that a cuemakers reputation is everything...that is the point of this discussion / opinion. If a cuemaker is getting a reputation of charging outlandish prices for ivory components or moori tips when the true cost of these parts do not warrant the price, but is simply priced to make money because customers have been conditioned to believe ivory / moori tips are exclusive or extremely rare or labor intensive. I remember what a cuemaker that posted often here said once about an ivory joint - 'drill it, tap it and glue it on and collect the cash'.
I have paid for and will continue to buy functional art...I love cues, but I dont see why cuemakers try to justify high prices by saying 'If it is something worth having, then it is something worth paying for'. Especially in relation to ivory in this case. The fact is that ivory is 80 bucks an inch and we as cue buyers have been conditioned to think that ivory is exclusive and merits an ultra high margin of profit due to the risks in using it. ALL I am saying is that is not fair to the customers and this stance can sometimes give off the wrong perception to the ones you are trying to sell your wares too. I.E. gouging
Birk1 said:
I don’t believe it is fair to make claims that if a builder is charging more than what you are willing to pay that they are gouging. This could be true in any aspect of raw material vs. end product if viewed this way. Trees vs. lumber…(why is a snakewood square more expensive from one place than it is another?) ..steel vs. autos….Cans of paint vs. a finished painting…..
The fact is…. we use raw material from start to finish creating our cues. We are the ones that determine what prices will justify our time, materials, and all overhead associated with the finished product. The market for these finished products will determine if we are deserving builders.
There are obviously people in the world market that don’t feel the same as you on this as they don’t seem to have any problems paying for a $400 butt cap if that is what is being asked of them.
What makes a Ferrari different than a VW? They are both made of the same types of material and if I get into them and push on the gas they will both take me to the same place.
Don’t misunderstand me…….I used to be cheap and would take my own oil into the oil change place for them to use. But I would get the same response…..OK but we won’t guarantee it.
Now what makes their oil any better or different than mine?
I could go on and on with different things but won’t because I think you understand where we are coming from.
If you can find someone who will take the gamble and work for less by all means take advantage of it. But I believe they are only hurting themselves in the long run.
But it’s not fair to the others who won’t, saying they are gouging the industry!
I don't sell many, I really only got some because of one of my good customers really likes them. I have started using them as a standard tip on my higher end cues, I really like them. I haven't had a single delamination or consistancy problem since I have been using them. I have had a few customers call me for more after changing the original tip on their cue to something else and not likeing whatever they had put on.
Hey sheldon, I would like to see pics of your ivory/malachite pointed forearm cue when you get it done. Chris B.
Hey sheldon, I would like to see pics of your ivory/malachite pointed forearm cue when you get it done. Chris B.
BarenbruggeCues said:
Dave,
I do understand what you are saying...I own some highend cues, timepieces and cars... I appreciate the finer things in life as we all do and I have no issues with paying for the best.
you have made some great points...and to reiterate my only point - we as the cuebuying public have been conditioned by cuemakers to believe that just because a cue has an ivory joint and buttplate that the cue should sell at a premium because it is 'exotic'. In reality it only represents 100 bucks extra in raw materials and maybe 5 extra machining steps.
Just as in cars, timepieces etc... there is are tiers in cuemakers and I appreciate that. The thing I dont appreciate is cuemakers IMO gouging customers when it comes to ivory/mooris because of the perception that this material is exotic. example-Dave... you do amazing work and I would love to acquire one of your cues because of the work and the name the work represents (timex contrasting a rolex)...and that should merit the price not because it has a 100 bucks in ivory attached to it.
{QUOTE}"If a cuemaker is getting a reputation of charging outlandish prices for ivory components or moori tips when the true cost of these parts do not warrant the price, but is simply priced to make money because customers have been conditioned to believe ivory / moori tips are exclusive or extremely rare or labor intensive"
If that cuemaker has a reputation for charging outlandish prices for these componants, he will not be in business for long. If you have a problem with the prices, then do not buy cues with ivory in them. How come you are not making the case for phenolic? Its the same thing. Its less than a dollar an inch but I charge $25 to change out a butt collar. Am I gouging? No. If I buy an ivory joint collar for $35 and install it for $150, is that gouging? No. Percent of profit is about the same. I do not think you can look at the price of a raw material and expect a certain price for it. That is market value. Dave may charge more or for these same procedures. Is he gouging? No. There is no industry standard for pricing. Shop time is different, experience is different, quality is different.....all of these things factor in.
If that cuemaker has a reputation for charging outlandish prices for these componants, he will not be in business for long. If you have a problem with the prices, then do not buy cues with ivory in them. How come you are not making the case for phenolic? Its the same thing. Its less than a dollar an inch but I charge $25 to change out a butt collar. Am I gouging? No. If I buy an ivory joint collar for $35 and install it for $150, is that gouging? No. Percent of profit is about the same. I do not think you can look at the price of a raw material and expect a certain price for it. That is market value. Dave may charge more or for these same procedures. Is he gouging? No. There is no industry standard for pricing. Shop time is different, experience is different, quality is different.....all of these things factor in.
Birk1 said:
Point understood.......PM with your specs and I'll ivory all the ends(with my ivory) and won't charge you any extra!
I think that cue repair is grossly misinterpretted. I do events and I did one in Minot for 300 players. Gas, food, lodging, booth fee for 3 day event was close to $1000. Does not include cost of materials or my investment in my machine, tooling, my time ordering out for the event, driving time to get there and back(10 hours each way)....and some guy thinks $10 bucks is too much to put on "his" tip. sorry no sympathy from me. What the players see at the event is all the cues getting repaired and have no idea of the rest involved to offer quality work at reasonable prices.
Reminds me of the guys squawking about $100.00 shafts WITH custom ringwork...