Cutting silver rings

Expanding metal rings?

I don't think so, if you measured your rings od at room temp then heated them up a 100 Deg. it would have grown maybe a couple tenths. IMO the problem is the wood it is always shrinking and expanding due to climate changes and the metal doesn't. People should consider this factor when choosing where they purchase a cue. If you live in a dry climate and you buy a cue from a maker who lives in a moist one, the cue is going to shrink. That cue maker has probably let his wood acclimatize to his climate not yours( I am not saying everybody does this but the majority do). To me this is a good reason to support your local guy, not as many problems due to shrinkage or expantion.
 
merylane said:
why do you keep calling it swelling? do you really think that is happening?

that reminds me of 2 high end cuemakers, 1 says nicklesilver has a higher moisture content than silver... :confused: what the &%$ IS HE THINKING?
the other says only the thick ones swell? go figger...

yes its true all materials expand with heat, and contract with cold(except water it also expands) but im sure the metal would be the last to do it, maybee you should consult a chemist.... or maybee experiment.... turn a 1" dowel, put it and your silver ring in the oven at different degrees and measure wich one moves the most.

id love to hear the results as i dont have an oven so i cant do it myself.
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Well, I for one am not a chemist, and have no clue when it comes to the moisture content, but to clear the coment i made up about turning the ring down flush, and when it cooled seem to rise, that goes against all logic to me, accept that what probably really happened was the material around it actually contracted when it cooled, making it seem like the ring raised. Now maybe that might shine some light on the expansion thing. Is it possible that there is more movement on both sides of the ring, then the ring it'self? maybe the ring just acts as a shifting/dividing plate. if scoring them well before glueing helps the situation, probably because it secures the plate better so it does not shift as much. just an theory, really have no idea Myself. I took What Chris said as a general discription of what takes place around the ring, but then again I am not the most politically correct, and tend to descride things alittle out of context myself. I believe the most heat a ring takes is when cutting it, but as i mentioned I live in a hot climate, and it gets hot enough to fry a pet, if someone leaves them in their car for too long, real shame, but it does get that hot down here, so it's possible a ring could see quite a bit of heat of left in a vehicle.
 
Canadian cue said:
I don't think so, if you measured your rings od at room temp then heated them up a 100 Deg. it would have grown maybe a couple tenths. IMO the problem is the wood it is always shrinking and expanding due to climate changes and the metal doesn't. People should consider this factor when choosing where they purchase a cue. If you live in a dry climate and you buy a cue from a maker who lives in a moist one, the cue is going to shrink. That cue maker has probably let his wood acclimatize to his climate not yours( I am not saying everybody does this but the majority do). To me this is a good reason to support your local guy, not as many problems due to shrinkage or expantion.
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Yeah, that makes sense to me, and kind of goes with my theory on it. I believe it's the material around the ring. I don't know about phenolic, but because of it's original intended use before being used in cues, i would think that it handles the heat, and change in climate better the other materials. You are correct about supporting the local guy, plenty of cues are moved to different climates, and do fine, but there is always that chance, and it can cause these problems as well IMO. Best thing I know to do is turn slow, dry throughly, and not too light on the nelsonite. seal it off well also before finish.
 
Cue Crazy said:
Well, I for one am not a chemist, and have no clue when it comes to the moisture content, but to clear the coment i made up about turning the ring down flush, and when it cooled seem to rise, that goes against all logic to me, accept that what probably really happened was the material around it actually contracted when it cooled, making it seem like the ring raised.

i believe most call it tool push off, it pushes off the harder material.
so the softer one gets cut more. just like when you sand.

cut a piece of maple, then put a piece of stainless in and cut it without adjusting your crosslide and measure the 2 pieces

if you cut with something with no push off it will be the same, when cut on the saw they come out flush.
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merylane said:
Cue Crazy said:
Well, I for one am not a chemist, and have no clue when it comes to the moisture content, but to clear the coment i made up about turning the ring down flush, and when it cooled seem to rise, that goes against all logic to me, accept that what probably really happened was the material around it actually contracted when it cooled, making it seem like the ring raised.

i believe most call it tool push off, it pushes off the harder material.
so the softer one gets cut more. just like when you sand.

cut a piece of maple, then put a piece of stainless in and cut it without adjusting your crosslide and measure the 2 pieces

if you cut with something with no push off it will be the same, when cut on the saw they come out flush.
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Nope not pushoff on this one, I am very familiar with it. this was with a manual tool at the time, and cut the ring more then the surrounding area because of that. I do understand your thinking, would normally think that myself, but they were flush after cutting, an hour later the ring was sticking up, and was also a very noticable difference. the manual tool should heat the material up more then the router IMO, so thinking that had more to with it in this paticular case. I will be using the router from now on anyway, I was practicing undercutting at the time this took place.
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Cue Crazy said:
That's what I do chris, but just use an really even skim coat of sytem three, or devcon, just enough so very alittle sqeezes out when i compress them and clamp, both are kind of thick, and the system three seems to get thicker if you don't use It all up really quick, so I have been wanting to try the west system. Bad thing is, they sell It right down the road from Me I believe, and have not even got by there to pick any up. i think I am going to go down and pick some up tomorrow, or this weekend. They probably have different types of It I am thinking, If so, do you know which type? I am thinking It would be of a thinner version since used in veneers, but want to make sure I get the best type they have, because not cheap If I pick the wrong one. I have some ebony triangles I cut to use in a short splice, and was thinking of adding one or two veneers, so would like to try the west sys. on that also. Maybe try it in my trim billet as well. the reason i am skim coating the rings now is because it seems to produce less of a problem with glue lines when i do that, hopefully the west will help some with that as well, because i would rather slap plenty of glue on those rings if the epoxy was thinner, and compressed better. i can do it with no lines, but not 100% everytime. if i were doing black would not be a problem though.

Mike, you are correct the alluminum is alot easier, really shiny, and have used them. The price is certainly better, as well as the movement characteristics, even have plenty around here to use, will probably use them on some of the low cost sneakys, but some want them silver, even if with the nickel in them. I can spot the difference between the 2 in a finished cue with ease, so imagine they would too, besides that, if specifically asked for, I would not be able to switch, because have to give them what they ask for. I will probably use them in some of the cues that are not built to specs for someone, and will advise of the price difference, and difference in characteristices, but since I am not a big fan of metal rings in general, may be few. I am just trying to get My technics down on each type right now. going to try some brass as well, I imagine those would go well like the aluminum. The nickel/silver will definatly be replaced for solid sterling. No more nickel for me. wish I had some solid gold rings :D

Thanks again guys, do appietiate It.

Greg
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quote
"The price is certainly better, as well as the movement characteristics, even have plenty around here to use, will probably use them on some of the low cost sneakys, but some want them silver, even if with the nickel in them. I can spot the difference between the 2 in a finished cue with ease, so imagine they would too, besides that, if specifically asked for, I would not be able to switch, because have to give them what they ask for. I will probably use them in some of the cues that are not built to specs for someone, and will advise of the price difference, and difference in characteristices, but since I am not a big fan of metal rings in general, may be few."

I am just curious. You are not under the impression there is any silver in nickel silver? It has very little value in general and I don't see the reason it is thought of for only higher end cues. They mostly make restaurant knives and forks out of it, it's not worth anything.
 
macguy said:
quote
"The price is certainly better, as well as the movement characteristics, even have plenty around here to use, will probably use them on some of the low cost sneakys, but some want them silver, even if with the nickel in them. I can spot the difference between the 2 in a finished cue with ease, so imagine they would too, besides that, if specifically asked for, I would not be able to switch, because have to give them what they ask for. I will probably use them in some of the cues that are not built to specs for someone, and will advise of the price difference, and difference in characteristices, but since I am not a big fan of metal rings in general, may be few."

I am just curious. You are not under the impression there is any silver in nickel silver? It has very little value in general and I don't see the reason it is thought of for only higher end cues. They mostly make restaurant knives and forks out of it, it's not worth anything.
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No quite the opposite, they go in better, have good characteristics, and all as i mentioned, and I will advise anyone of the differences between the 2. Personally in a cue i shoot with, would make no difference to me which was in it, as long as a good hitting cue, but don't prefer any kind of metal rings in my own cue anyway, except maybe a steel joint. I own plenty with both kinds of them, I do shoot fine with them, just the same as the nickel so makes do diff to me between the 2. I would actually prefer installing those, and they are shiny, as well as polish nice. I aggree with you there on the value, but as you sound to know aleady, and i have a good idea of myself from listening to people, others do seem to think something like that. All I can do Is try to educate them on it. all I am saying Is that I can tell the difference in the looks of the 2, probably because the alum looks better LOL, and others who are less educated on the rings, and value, can still tell the difference in the 2 also. Probably because they were used in some lower end cues in the past. but you know there was atleast one of those low ends that the rings held up well in over time that I know of. and there were some very high end cues built with them as well that stood the test of time. I have no problem with them at all, and say more power to you. Just wish some of My customers, and potential future buyers felt the same way. Sometimes trying to explain that to them has not effect on what they want.

The reason I mentioned using the alluminum in lower end cues was because they are cheaper in price, and I can sell the sneakys for less with minimal extra work. those nickels are a pain in the ___ to work with and I hate the things. I have a lower end market here to tap into also, so cost with quality is a concern for me. not that i would not use them in a high end cue. Hope noone that as a shot, was not meant to be. Makes no difference to me what rings someone uses, if you build a good hitting cue, that is all that concerns me in a cue.

I will probably be using the sterling rings when they just have to have them anyway, because they are supposed to be easier to work with then nickel/silver. how much nickel are in those?
 
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Cue Crazy said:
No quite the opposite, they go in better, have good characteristics, and all as i mentioned, and I will advise anyone of the differences between the 2. Personally in a cue i shoot with, would make no difference to me which was in it, as long as a good hitting cue, but don't prefer any kind of metal rings in my own cue anyway, except maybe a steel joint. I own plenty with both kinds of them, I do shoot fine with them, just the same as the nickel so makes do diff to me between the 2. I would actually prefer installing those, and they are shiny, as well as polish nice. I aggree with you there on the value, but as you sound to know aleady, and i have a good idea of myself from listening to people, others do seem to think something like that. All I can do Is try to educate them on it. all I am saying Is that I can tell the difference in the looks of the 2, probably because the alum looks better LOL, and others who are less educated on the rings, and value, can still tell the difference in the 2 also. Probably because they were used in some lower end cues in the past. but you know there was atleast one of those low ends that the rings held up well in over time that I know of. and there were some very high end cues built with them as well that stood the test of time. I have no problem with them at all, and say more power to you. Just wish some of My customers, and potential future buyers felt the same way. Sometimes trying to explain that to them has not effect on what they want.

The reason I mentioned using the alluminum in lower end cues was because they are cheaper in price, and I can sell the sneakys for less with minimal extra work. those nickels are a pain in the ___ to work with and I hate the things. I have a lower end market here to tap into also, so cost with quality is a concern for me. not that i would not use them in a high end cue. Hope noone that as a shot, was not meant to be. Makes no difference to me what rings someone uses, if you build a good hitting cue, that is all that concerns me in a cue.

I will probably be using the sterling rings when they just have to have them anyway, because they are supposed to be easier to work with then nickel/silver. how much nickel are in those?
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It is copper, zinc, and nickel, I am not sure what percentage. As for as silver and gold you should have them made up yourself. You do not have to have the washer go all the way to the tenon. They can be little more then .050 thick like any inlay. Mount the phenolic ring and next cut it down to accept the silver or gold ring, face it off and then install the next phenolic ring.You could even pre-make the assembaly before putting it on the cue. The final effect will be the same but the ring will actually account for almost none of the joint and have no effect on it's play at all. There is no need to have a 14 k ring where 99% is inside the cue. it would be silly and a waste.
 
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macguy said:
It is copper, zinc, and nickel, I am not sure what percentage. As for as silver and gold you should have them made up yourself. You do not have to have the washer go all the way to the tenon. They can be little more then .050 thick like any inlay. Mount the phenolic ring and next cut it down to accept the silver or gold ring, face it off and then install the next phenolic ring.You could even pre-make the assembaly before putting it on the cue. The final effect will be the same but the ring will actually account for almost none of the joint and have no effect on it's play at all. There is no need to have a 14 k ring where 99% is inside the cue. it would be silly and a waste.
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Yeah a shoulder for it would save material, therefore save on cost, and if done right, might not flatten out the hit as much, if any. very good idea. I have done something simular before, but did not think too much about it being easier to transfer feedback that way.

The sterling rings that atlas has now aren't real? they cost around 3-4 bucks a piece, and they say they sand easier then nickel. also know what a troy ounce goes for these days by any chance? I have'nt priced It lately. thanks Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
Yeah a shoulder for it would save material, therefore save on cost, and if done right, might not flatten out the hit as much, if any. very good idea. I have done something simular before, but did not think too much about it being easier to transfer feedback that way.

The sterling rings that atlas has now aren't real? they cost around 3-4 bucks a piece, and they say they sand easier then nickel. also know what a troy ounce goes for these days by any chance? I have'nt priced It lately. thanks Greg
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I would say $7.00 to $7.50 an ounce. You can have them cast for yourself in silver or gold. You don't have to depend on someone else to buy them they would be easy to make. Simple lost wax casting would do it.
 
(Update) The silver rings are the real deal, and look like they should trim very nicely. I have experiemented with the double Black and love the stuff, besides the smell & fine dust, It machines so well that the rings do not even seem to need sanding because the faces are so nice, and match perfect right off the lathe. the aluminum rings also look amazing when backed on both sides by this stuff, which is giving me second thoughts, and possibly using It more then I had planned on basic cues. There is a picture with some of it, and the rings have not yet been glued sanded or trimmed, and the faces match up perfect already.

I also bought a few jewelers saws to try in my dremel flex shaft for the heck of It. I have the older metal handpiece shaft version so was easy to mount to a tool post. The setup is definatly not the best suited as Murray mentioned, but I am able to cut some really thin trim rings with It, and they are really smooth. I would not recomend anyone try this though, because is a very hairy operation with only a 1/8 shank mandrel, as the feed rate of the crosslide can be very tricky, and you really have to play It out by feel & ear, by the sound of the motor wind and bog to feed the thing perfect, and not snap the mandrel off turning It into a projectile possibly causing some injury. Will probably cut the lenth of the shank down, and will be stronger. Also build a better mount. They are HSS.

I do have a 1/4 shaft porter cable router, and a 1/8 adapter for it, so could use the saws in that, but with as high of rpm's as that thing turns kind of concerned there, altough I do have a router speed control if It will work. Pluss I would rather have a 1/4 shank saw for It instead of the small 1/8 saw I am using with the dremel. Anyone know where to get the 1/4 shank saws for cutoff?

All in all I am able to cut thin rings with the dremel, I cut a piece of delrin with it that was almost paper thin, and will cut wood very thin as well. the bacote in between the rings in the other picture I could atleast cut in half, if not more. It's not heavy duty enough for day in day out production though IMO, but until I get a foredom for threads it will get me by on some thin cutoffs.
 

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Greg.

Do not, and i repeat DO NOT, use the power feed when using the dremel/saw. As you said, it could cause some unwanted side effects (projectile.)
Do it by hand, the rings still come out just as smooth, just cut them off slow and steady.

Safety first.

Or else, how could you type really long posts with only one eye? :p :D

Thanks,

Jon~~*"lets see ya do that with one friggin' eye!!!!!"*~~
 
BiG_JoN said:
Greg.

Do not, and i repeat DO NOT, use the power feed when using the dremel/saw. As you said, it could cause some unwanted side effects (projectile.)
Do it by hand, the rings still come out just as smooth, just cut them off slow and steady.

Safety first.

Or else, how could you type really long posts with only one eye? :p :D

Thanks,

Jon~~*"lets see ya do that with one friggin' eye!!!!!"*~~
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Your right about that Jon, It's a may pop for sure LOL. All joking asside, It's more like a will pop, can't believe I even tried it without some kind of guard. That's why I in no way recomend anyone try this. You really have to be good at feeling, listening, and handfeeding this thing or oops :confused: the motors don't have enough low end torque at lower rpms for this. I would never try running It off a power feed, my router, or a manual tool bit is fine for that. I was just trying to get something to cut super thin rings from what I already had for now, and It sure will do that. I am pretty good at feeling these things from using so many crap bits on unforgivable materials in the past, but even with that said, something could easily go wrong with this setup at anytime no matter how smooth you hand feed it, so It even sketches me out more than I would like, pluss I can't let pops jump on this thing and use it, because It's not anywhere near safe, so I need to get a saw like this with a 1/4 mandrel. Have any hot links on that one for Me bubba :D ? you always seem to have a good one for me on this type of stuff. really need to get something more solid then this letter opener I am using :confused:. Thanks Greg

Oh by the way, I usually don't care for brass rings, but like those you did so much, I actually got some myself to try out also.
 
Cue Crazy said:
Your right about that Jon, It's a may pop for sure LOL. All joking asside, It's more like a will pop, can't believe I even tried it without some kind of guard. That's why I in no way recomend anyone try this. You really have to be good at feeling, listening, and handfeeding this thing or oops :confused: the motors don't have enough low end torque at lower rpms for this. I would never try running It off a power feed, my router, or a manual tool bit is fine for that. I was just trying to get something to cut super thin rings from what I already had for now, and It sure will do that. I am pretty good at feeling these things from using so many crap bits on unforgivable materials in the past, but even with that said, something could easily go wrong with this setup at anytime no matter how smooth you hand feed it, so It even sketches me out more than I would like, pluss I can't let pops jump on this thing and use it, because It's not anywhere near safe, so I need to get a saw like this with a 1/4 mandrel. Have any hot links on that one for Me bubba :D ? you always seem to have a good one for me on this type of stuff. really need to get something more solid then this letter opener I am using :confused:. Thanks Greg

Oh by the way, I usually don't care for brass rings, but like those you did so much, I actually got some myself to try out also.
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Is it that you don't like working with the brass or do you feel that it changes the hit in a negative way?
 
Cue Crazy said:
Your right about that Jon, It's a may pop for sure LOL. All joking asside, It's more like a will pop, can't believe I even tried it without some kind of guard. That's why I in no way recomend anyone try this. You really have to be good at feeling, listening, and handfeeding this thing or oops :confused: the motors don't have enough low end torque at lower rpms for this. I would never try running It off a power feed, my router, or a manual tool bit is fine for that. I was just trying to get something to cut super thin rings from what I already had for now, and It sure will do that. I am pretty good at feeling these things from using so many crap bits on unforgivable materials in the past, but even with that said, something could easily go wrong with this setup at anytime no matter how smooth you hand feed it, so It even sketches me out more than I would like, pluss I can't let pops jump on this thing and use it, because It's not anywhere near safe, so I need to get a saw like this with a 1/4 mandrel. Have any hot links on that one for Me bubba :D ? you always seem to have a good one for me on this type of stuff. really need to get something more solid then this letter opener I am using :confused:. Thanks Greg

Oh by the way, I usually don't care for brass rings, but like those you did so much, I actually got some myself to try out also.
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Thanks for the kind words on the rings ;) .
The next ones are gonna be even better :D .

Right now i'm using a .020" thick fine tooth saw, and it's turning around 4000 RPM. I just take it slow, never like to get in a hurry.
I'll look for the one i am using, i think it is 3"x.500"x0.02" (O.D.xI.DxWidth)

Speaking of letting fathers use equipment...
If i hear either the lathe, vertical mill or horizontal mill fire up... i get scared :D .

Usually i'll hear some yelling, some non-equipment noises things dropped or "projected"...

I remember when he was grinding something, and the little (1/8") shank snapped. I might still be able to find the mark on the wall, about 20-30 feet from the lathe :D .

But i can't talk, i have a few scars.

One time my opti-watchamacallit (the guy that keeps my eyes in shape) found a very small metal object embedded in one of my contact lenses :eek: :confused:
How'd that get in there???

Thanks,

Jon~~*wears safety glasses now :cool: *~~
 
Gerald said:
Is it that you don't like working with the brass or do you feel that it changes the hit in a negative way?
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Actually love the way It machines, as far as the hit a matter of opinion, one of which I don't really have. I guess I just associated with older cues in need of refinish, and forgot how good It looks when polished and sealed.
 
BiG_JoN said:
Thanks for the kind words on the rings ;) .
The next ones are gonna be even better :D .

Want to see them when your done :D

Right now i'm using a .020" thick fine tooth saw, and it's turning around 4000 RPM. I just take it slow, never like to get in a hurry.
I'll look for the one i am using, i think it is 3"x.500"x0.02" (O.D.xI.DxWidth)

Is that 1/4 Shank?

Speaking of letting fathers use equipment...
If i hear either the lathe, vertical mill or horizontal mill fire up... i get scared :D .

LOL I know

Usually i'll hear some yelling, some non-equipment noises things dropped or "projected"...

With Mine It's silence, after a hard knocking or crashing sound that worries me, he's like me there, when the soreness sets in is when the crying starts.

I remember when he was grinding something, and the little (1/8") shank snapped. I might still be able to find the mark on the wall, about 20-30 feet from the lathe :D .

Yeah, that what I keep picturing in my head. My fathers getting up there in age, and does'nt listen as well as he used to, so I can't put him on something like that. He will jump right on without warning also. I don't want to use It no more then I have to, one bind up is all it takes.

But i can't talk, i have a few scars.

Yep My hands alone tell many tales of dumb things I have done throughout My life :(

One time my opti-watchamacallit (the guy that keeps my eyes in shape) found a very small metal object embedded in one of my contact lenses :eek: :confused:
How'd that get in there???

I had a disk grinder that I always used without goggles, and always got something in my eye, one time a small piece stuck right to my eyeball and got me good. can't count the number of times I have taken that kind of thing in the eyes, don't know how I can still see as good as I can. That grinder had an oversized blade, with no guard, and used to take the tips of My fingers off all the time It seemed. remember when I was young, my dad was a forman at a ship building yard, and a huge grinding disk exploded, took down everyone around It. My dad had pieces go all through his legs, even went through the steel toe of his boot. could'nt walk for a while. grinders are really dangerous.

Thanks,

Jon~~*wears safety glasses now :cool: *~~
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a piece of alloy shaving in the eye a couple of months ago reminded me, so I do too :cool: thanks Greg
 
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