Dead rail on valley

K

ktrepal85

Banned
Hi,

I bought a used valley bar box and fixed it up to play pretty nice. I put down Simonis cloth and installed Ridgeback Rails. It plays really well however two of the rails are dead. I wouldn't go as far as to call them dead because they still play well they just are much worse than the others which seem to be perfect. If you hit the ball hard it makes that 'thud' noise and the balls lose speed.

Both of the dead rails are adjacent to the same corner pocket and the casting in that corner has a little wiggle to it when you lean on it. I already tightened up the two casting bolts on each corner pocket but the problem is still there.

Is there anything else I can do? Any idea what is causing this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin
 
ktrepal85 said:
Hi,

I bought a used valley bar box and fixed it up to play pretty nice. I put down Simonis cloth and installed Ridgeback Rails. It plays really well however two of the rails are dead. I wouldn't go as far as to call them dead because they still play well they just are much worse than the others which seem to be perfect. If you hit the ball hard it makes that 'thud' noise and the balls lose speed.

Both of the dead rails are adjacent to the same corner pocket and the casting in that corner has a little wiggle to it when you lean on it. I already tightened up the two casting bolts on each corner pocket but the problem is still there.

Is there anything else I can do? Any idea what is causing this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin
Click to expand...

I had this problem with a table someone had set up on end and left in storage. The rail itself had become un nailed from the rest of the box (un nailed, un stapled, whatever you want to call it) and the corners where the casting bolted on where broke. (the ears split and one only had half the hole)

i rebuilt the piece on the end rail (the ears) and reattached the long rail with a staple gun.

As far as the thud. on a valley i have found if you hit it hard enough you will always hear a thud on older tables or tables that where abused. its when you hear a thud at normal speaks you have to worry about. I have put brand new rails on a table tightened them to 65 inch pounds and still heard thuds when hitting hard. A thud isn't always indicative of a dead rail.
 
cammel8 said:
I had this problem with a table someone had set up on end and left in storage. The rail itself had become un nailed from the rest of the box (un nailed, un stapled, whatever you want to call it) and the corners where the casting bolted on where broke. (the ears split and one only had half the hole)

i rebuilt the piece on the end rail (the ears) and reattached the long rail with a staple gun.

As far as the thud. on a valley i have found if you hit it hard enough you will always hear a thud on older tables or tables that where abused. its when you hear a thud at normal speaks you have to worry about. I have put brand new rails on a table tightened them to 65 inch pounds and still heard thuds when hitting hard. A thud isn't always indicative of a dead rail.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input but I'm having some trouble following you here. Are you saying that the wood that the rail bolts into might be loose?

What else holds the casting in place besides those two bolts within the pocket? I feel like I just need to tighten a few screws on the casting somewhere to fix everything.

The rail is not 'dead' because I've seen some dead rails and these are much better. I'm just saying they play worse than the other rails and the casting is obviously loose. When I play certain shots I can see the loss of energy in the cue ball as it comes across those rails. And when I lean on the casting it moves a little bit and makes a squeaking noise.
 
Tighten the pocket casting bolts as they secure the top rail cap to the castings. If they are loose or missing, the top rail can and will deaden the impact of the balls bouncing off the cushions.
 
ktrepal85 said:
Hi,

I bought a used valley bar box and fixed it up to play pretty nice. I put down Simonis cloth and installed Ridgeback Rails. It plays really well however two of the rails are dead. I wouldn't go as far as to call them dead because they still play well they just are much worse than the others which seem to be perfect. If you hit the ball hard it makes that 'thud' noise and the balls lose speed.

Both of the dead rails are adjacent to the same corner pocket and the casting in that corner has a little wiggle to it when you lean on it. I already tightened up the two casting bolts on each corner pocket but the problem is still there.

Is there anything else I can do? Any idea what is causing this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin
Click to expand...

I already tightened them...see original post above.
 
ktrepal85 said:
Thanks for the input but I'm having some trouble following you here. Are you saying that the wood that the rail bolts into might be loose?

What else holds the casting in place besides those two bolts within the pocket? I feel like I just need to tighten a few screws on the casting somewhere to fix everything.

The rail is not 'dead' because I've seen some dead rails and these are much better. I'm just saying they play worse than the other rails and the casting is obviously loose. When I play certain shots I can see the loss of energy in the cue ball as it comes across those rails. And when I lean on the casting it moves a little bit and makes a squeaking noise.
Click to expand...

if you look at your table you will see a board covered with laminate that comes to a corner made out of cast (aluminum I believe.) If the slate isn't in its way easier to see. But the part of the rail that you bolt the actual rail to (the wood with rubber glued to it) is made up of three pieces of wood. one that has laminate glued to it for looks. Second piece in middle and a third piece with ears on it. The third Piece is what the cast piece attaches to. That is all nailed together as one piece then gets nailed to the box and then the castings bolted to it. if either of the castings are loose or it has come un nailed from the box then you will get a dead rail because the board will give instead of the rail and absorb some of the hit.

Also your rails should be 1 7/16 inch high (i think). I made a tool a long time ago to measure rail height so i don't remember actual height any more. but i think 1 7/16 rings a bell. You might want to check that though. But if your rails are right height and tightened to 65 inch pounds, and everything else is tight you may want to pull the rails and check to make sure they aren't unglued from the wood under the felt.

Hope this helps
 
ktrepal85 said:
I already tightened them...see original post above.
Click to expand...

if it is still wiggling after you tightened them either the boards you tightened them to are loose or you didn't tighten them enough. there should be no movement from the boards or castings. if they are moving remove yur slate and figure it out because they shouldn't be. They are what holds everything solid if they aren't solid nothing will be.
 
I know the Ridgeback rails well, if the rails are acting dead there's only 2 reasons that can happen, 1) pocket casting bolts are loose, 2) rail block bolts are loose....that's it, and I have over 30 years experience working on the Valley tables. With the cushion blocks being new from Ridgeback that eliminates any problems coming from them as a possibility. I'd check the pocket casting bolts again, make sure each bolt has a large flat washer on it, if not all you'll be doing is tightening the bolt to the casting and not holding the rail cap at the same time to keep it secure, make sure the bolts are not to long either.
 
cammel8 said:
if you look at your table you will see a board covered with laminate that comes to a corner made out of cast (aluminum I believe.) If the slate isn't in its way easier to see. But the part of the rail that you bolt the actual rail to (the wood with rubber glued to it) is made up of three pieces of wood. one that has laminate glued to it for looks. Second piece in middle and a third piece with ears on it. The third Piece is what the cast piece attaches to. That is all nailed together as one piece then gets nailed to the box and then the castings bolted to it. if either of the castings are loose or it has come un nailed from the box then you will get a dead rail because the board will give instead of the rail and absorb some of the hit.

Also your rails should be 1 7/16 inch high (i think). I made a tool a long time ago to measure rail height so i don't remember actual height any more. but i think 1 7/16 rings a bell. You might want to check that though. But if your rails are right height and tightened to 65 inch pounds, and everything else is tight you may want to pull the rails and check to make sure they aren't unglued from the wood under the felt.

Hope this helps
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's much more helpful! I'll have to take off my slate and see what's going on down there. I have a feeling something is not nailed down all the way like you're saying.
 
realkingcobra said:
I know the Ridgeback rails well, if the rails are acting dead there's only 2 reasons that can happen, 1) pocket casting bolts are loose, 2) rail block bolts are loose....that's it, and I have over 30 years experience working on the Valley tables. With the cushion blocks being new from Ridgeback that eliminates any problems coming from them as a possibility. I'd check the pocket casting bolts again, make sure each bolt has a large flat washer on it, if not all you'll be doing is tightening the bolt to the casting and not holding the rail cap at the same time to keep it secure, make sure the bolts are not to long either.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation. I already tightened the bolts twice within a month or so and the second time I cranked the hell out of it to the point where it felt like I was going to break the allen key wrench. You brought up a good point about the washers though. I am not home to inspect this right now but I don't remember seeing a washer and with all 8 of the casting bolts it seemed like they would always turn an extra little bit never getting fully 100% secure but I stopped in fear of breaking something. Maybe I am missing this washer you speak of. Should the washer be on the outside over the plastic pocket liner?
 
ktrepal85 said:
Thanks for the recommendation. I already tightened the bolts twice within a month or so and the second time I cranked the hell out of it to the point where it felt like I was going to break the allen key wrench. You brought up a good point about the washers though. I am not home to inspect this right now but I don't remember seeing a washer and with all 8 of the casting bolts it seemed like they would always turn an extra little bit never getting fully 100% secure but I stopped in fear of breaking something. Maybe I am missing this washer you speak of. Should the washer be on the outside over the plastic pocket liner?
Click to expand...

Huh??...the pocket casting bolts I'm talking about are on the bottom side of the castings and have a 9/16ths hex head on them, they're 3/8ths × 16 threads bolts.
 
realkingcobra said:
Huh??...the pocket casting bolts I'm talking about are on the bottom side of the castings and have a 9/16ths hex head on them, they're 3/8ths × 16 threads bolts.
Click to expand...

I was tightening the bolts that are actually inside the pockets. Although I feel like a retard, this is good news! So now I need to find the actual casting bolts haha.

Bottom side of the castings: Underneath by the legs/floor? Or do I have to lift the slate to find them?

Thanks btw, this gives me hope!
 
ktrepal85 said:
I was tightening the bolts that are actually inside the pockets. Although I feel like a retard, this is good news! So now I need to find the actual casting bolts haha.

Bottom side of the castings: Underneath by the legs/floor? Or do I have to lift the slate to find them?

Thanks btw, this gives me hope!
Click to expand...

Take the rails off, lift the slate, then look under the corner block castings with the slate out of the way so you can see them.
 
I think I found the casting bolts last night. I didn't have any help to lift off the slate but I put my hand down into the pocket and to the side. they are pointing straight up toward the ceiling. One on each side. I hope those are them. They were all there and seemed tight as far as my hand was concerned. I'll have to get in there with a wrench once I have help to lift the slate.
 
Castings

Make sure the FENDER WASHER is 25/64 X 1-1⁄2" and that the 3/8ths-16 bolt is 5/8ths long. If the plywood is crushed, use two washers.
No exceptions for substitute hardware.

I suggest you remove the slate and check all the casting hardware.
You can access the bolts by removing the pocket liner but you won't get to inspect the area or have much working room from the opening with the slate in and rails on.

Ps. If the bolt is missing it might be down in the leg due to it falling thru the slot in the bottom of the box.



Rob.M
 
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dontlitethat said:
Make sure the FENDER WASHER is 25/64 X 1-1⁄2" and that the 3/8ths-16 bolt is 5/8ths long. If the plywood is crushed, use two washers.
No exceptions for substitute hardware.

I suggest you remove the slate and check all the casting hardware.
You can access the bolts by removing the pocket liner but you won't get to inspect the area or have much working room from the opening with the slate in and rails on.



Rob.M
Click to expand...

The length of the pocket casting bolts depends on the age of the table, some used longer bolts too. Best to compare what's already being used in the table:cool:
 
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