Debate is good

[JimBo]

JimBo, did you know that Ernie (Ginna) has made many Bushka knockoffs. Four points, four veneers, notched diamonds in four boxes in the butt. According to your way of thinking, they are all thiefs. Here is a photo or an early 90"s Phillippi. (91 or 92) I wonder where he stole this design. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
Purdman

Donald you seem to be like a scorned girlfriend, I'm sorry that I hurt you so deep, but you and spliced will have to get over it. You guys are welcome to hold a grudge and keep trying to come at me, but you'll have to realize that I am going to post my opinions and they may not always match up with yours, it's the way the world works. Move on in life. Now I will address your post because I'm bored.

Ernie and Bushka worked at the same time, during that time techniques and machines weren't what they are today, coming up with new designs wasn't like it is in today's age. The diamonds used in all those early cues were stolen from a company who made them for gutiars. Boxes in the butt was an easy technique that was used for hundreds of years in wood working, there is not 1 person who can take credit for this. Also your claim is about similar cues and not direct copies, if you want me to comment on a Gina that is a direct copy of a Bushka design feel free to post pictures of both cues.
Also please stop saying according to my way of thinking, it's clear you don't understand my way of thinking from what you wrote and are to stubborn to ask me to explain it, I don't need or want you putting words in my mouth. As far as the phillippi cue goes it's a nice looking cue, seems to be their own design (far as I know) I have never said they steal every design they make. I did say they seem to barrow a lot of ideas from other people rather then being creative and coming up with their own look. Open up the bluebook (2) and take a look at their color picture in the front, tell me if you see any designs (rings, inlays) that remind you of other makers. Please get over your obsession with me, if you want opinions on cues feel free to post them, but there is no need to address me personally, unlike you I have no hang up with you or any cuemaker, I just gave my opinion and it's one shared by many people I know, but it's become clear as to why someone would think twice before giving it. BTW according to your way of thinking no cuemaker has ever come up with an original design and it's not hard to design cues and it's also ok for anyone to copy whatever they want. See how easy it is to make up crap about someone that he never said or meant?

Jim

 

[Purdman]

JimBo, My Fellow Cue Enthusiast

Jim, I am just trying to point out to you that the same thing can be said of all cuemakers. I am not 100% correct, nor are you. You like to debate, so do I. You have some knowledge about cues, so do I. We would be hard pressed to find a cue that didn't have some resemblance to another cue made by someone else. I have been buying, selling, and collecting cues for about 6 years. I have been playing for 45 years. I have seen thousands of cues. I am sure you have too.
I do not mean to attack you personally. Your statement that the Phillippis steal cue designs didn't hurt my ego or feelings. I don't think it was right due to the fact that there are so many others out there that see designs they like and use them. Who the hell knows who came up with what first. Just might have come off some cavemans wall. Look at Diekman, right off the wall.
So, let's be friends and debate. I would love to see some of your cues.
Purdman

 

[JimBo]

Jim, I am just trying to point out to you that the same thing can be said of all cuemakers.

I disagree

I am not 100% correct, nor are you.

There is no doubt that this may be the best thing you've ever said and I agree 100%

You like to debate, so do I. You have some knowledge about cues, so do I.

What I've been talking about has little to do with cues or what I know or don't know. I can change the word cue with sculpture or painting and have the same views. To me this is about art and creative people being robbed.

We would be hard pressed to find a cue that didn't have some resemblance to another cue made by someone else.

Again I can disagree and I can also give many examples.

I have been buying, selling, and collecting cues for about 6 years. I have been playing for 45 years. I have seen thousands of cues.

That's great, again I will point out it has little to do with my opinion that people should not steal the intellectual property of others.

I am sure you have too.

I'm not sure why you would be sure of this, I have not given any credentials nor do I think they matter in this case.


I do not mean to attack you personally.

Your posts seem to speak differently, but I will take your word on this.

Your statement that the Phillippis steal cue designs didn't hurt my ego or feelings.

My statement was an opinion held and voiced by many others cue makers and collectors alike, not to mention people who just look at the work. This is not to say that's all they do or all they are able to do. I think they have ability and to see it wasted is sad, I love to see new designs and interesting cues, I'd love to see them rethink how they've done things and come out with some drop dead new designs.

I don't think it was right due to the fact that there are so many others out there that see designs they like and use them.

I didn't say it was ok for others but not them, I have been consistent from day one. They seem to be the only one's you took offense to.

Who the hell knows who came up with what first.

In many cases it's easy to tell, in other cases (older stuff and basic stuff) there is a gray area and I am not the one to make the call, but I can voice my opinion. I am sick of people trying to put words in my mouth and tell me what I meant or what I said.

Just might have come off some cavemans wall. Look at Diekman, right off the wall.
So, let's be friends and debate. I would love to see some of your cues.
Purdman

I have never even said I owned a cue let alone some cool ones, again it isn't relevant to this discussion. Not to mention with the attitude of the people here why would I post any pictures up for people who don't seem to have any problem stealing designs. I'm not about to give anyone any ideas, some people take pride in owning something they had a hand in creating, others really enjoy having a one of a kind unique cue. I would love to debate any topic with you and I will continue to give my opinion, I can only apologize now for I am sure I will not always agree with everyone.

Jim

 

[timbo.hobo]

Debate IS good, comments directed towards and individual are NOT.

I think there is no way for an artist to NOT be inspired by another artist's work. Inspiration is a big part of creation. It's definitely OK to be inspired. But where one draws a line between inspiration and plagirism is up to the individual. I think it's perfectly fine to take the IDEA behind a design and produce something with the same idea, but the artist must be able to bring forth his own interpretation of that idea. When it comes to cues, these 'ideas' are usually construction techniques, like 'slotted rings', 'butterfly points', etc. It's how the artist takes these and adds their flavour to it that makes his/her work unique. The way Mr. Ernie Gutierrez does the butterfly veneers between the points in his 'rainbow cue' (Chao Fong Pang's 2000 World Champion cue) is his way of displaying the idea of splicing butterflies between v-points. When someone decides to reproduce something that looks exactly the same, it might be a tribute to a great artist and his work. At first I guess it's flattering because no one will want to copy sumthing if they didn't think it's nice. But, if this someone decides to base his business around these 'tribute' cues, I'd be very annoyed. Sometimes the word 'inspired' is used misleadingly.

Using an analogy to music, I don't mind listening to covers of songs, as long as the artist is able to bring something fresh, make the song sound as if it was his to begin with. Sometime's I even prefer the new interpretation over the original, but that's only because the creativity and imagination was poured into the making of the new version.

Tim.