Decreasing shelf depth????

mattman

mattman

Registered User
Silver Member
I have a GCI which has a long (and by that I mean to the outer specs of what's regulation) shelf. I want to decrease the shelf depth...can it be done and how? I spoke with a cue maker and he thought it could not be done correctly. I suggested building a sort of jig that would attatch to the table and a router would be used. He said there would be no way that you could get all the pockets the same, but I disagree. I think there is a way, but just don't know how.

I am not looking to do this myself, but have it professionally done. The pockets are very wide.....again, to the outer specs of regulations. I would also like the pockets shimmed, but I guess that could be neither here nor there.

Thanks
Matt
 
slate extentions

Matt. If you are talking about the throat of the pocket. This has came up on older antique tables, like when you run a ball down the rail of table and it will fall in the side pocket. I think the best way would be to get a sheet of phenolic and cut it to what you need and clamp it to the slate and drill five 1/8" holes through the phenolic and into the slate. Then use epoxy and glue the phenolic to the slate and install fiber glass rods into the holes with glue also. This material will not shrink or swell.Then fill the top with bondo and sand to what you need. This will take some time and it is hard work, but it will pay off. I really would tell you to hire a mechanic to do this, but most would just look at you with a dumb look on there face.LOL Maybe Glen will be in your area.
As fas as tightening the pockets mouth. Do a search on subrails. I hope this helps you and PM me if you have any questions.
Ron
 
I am not sure if we're on the same page because you kind of lost me. I am soley talking about the corner pockets. I know you measure the width of the pockets from the tip of the cushion to the opposite cushion tip. The shelf is from that imaginary line to where the pocket drops off...this is what I am calling the shelf. I'm wanting to remove material from where the pocket drops towards the playing surface of the table. To clue you in why I want to shorten the shelf depth is because I have a problem with rail shots that are a moderate speed and above, "rattling" in the pocket. Bar tables have a very short shelf depth. I also went to a place here in town that Bob Owen (Gabe Owen's dad) owns. He just has 4 tables, but I noticed that the shelf on his GCIII's had a short shelf and thought if mine were like his, I would not have such an issue with balls "rattling" in the pocket on moderate to fast rails shots.

Thanks
Matt
 
Rattled

Mattman,

I am not a table mechanic but it is my understanding from research I have done that the ball rattling scenario you are describing may be in part due to the angle the pocket openings are cut to. If you are going to do sub rail extensions to tighten the pockets the angle of the pocket openings could be changed then. Do a search on "sub rail extensions" Glen has posted some great information here. You should also take some sort of shelf measurement and post that so some of the guys here may be able to comment on that. I would not go and cut back the shelf without being certain you want to do this as it is far more difficult to add back.
 
mattman said:
I have a GCI which has a long (and by that I mean to the outer specs of what's regulation) shelf. I want to decrease the shelf depth...can it be done and how? I spoke with a cue maker and he thought it could not be done correctly. I suggested building a sort of jig that would attatch to the table and a router would be used. He said there would be no way that you could get all the pockets the same, but I disagree. I think there is a way, but just don't know how.

I am not looking to do this myself, but have it professionally done. The pockets are very wide.....again, to the outer specs of regulations. I would also like the pockets shimmed, but I guess that could be neither here nor there.

Thanks
Matt
Click to expand...
Matt, the GC1's & 2's shared the same slates as far as slate shelfs go. Brunswick didn't get away from the slanted back slate pocket cuts until the GC3's started. Cutting back the pocket of the slate is also going to require cutting back the frame under the pocket opening, as cutting back the slate will also expose the frame in the corner pockets. The depth of the pockets on your table are very close to the deep slate shelf pockets used on the 9ft Diamond tables today. I think I'd look more into the pocket openings of the rails as opposed to the slate shelfs, as that alone will change the play of your table very noticeably. Cutting back the slate shelfs is just going to make the table play more sloppy, unless that's what you want;)

Glen
 
Matt

Sorry. I understand now. But you can not compare a bar table to a Gold Crown. A bar table is set up to swallow a ball and a gold crown is set up exactly different. I would suggest purchasing a different table and not messing with removing material. This will decrease the value, for sure.
Ron
 
Well....decreasing the table value is not a concern since the table will never leave my possesion until I die. I have a lot of the top professional men and women signatures on the blinds of the table. It just gets real frustrating when you know you need to send a ball down the rail with some speed to aquire position and you just have this gut feeling that the ball is going to rattle in the pocket.....and then it does.

Matt
 
realkingcobra said:
Matt, the GC1's & 2's shared the same slates as far as slate shelfs go. Brunswick didn't get away from the slanted back slate pocket cuts until the GC3's started. Cutting back the pocket of the slate is also going to require cutting back the frame under the pocket opening, as cutting back the slate will also expose the frame in the corner pockets. The depth of the pockets on your table are very close to the deep slate shelf pockets used on the 9ft Diamond tables today. I think I'd look more into the pocket openings of the rails as opposed to the slate shelfs, as that alone will change the play of your table very noticeably. Cutting back the slate shelfs is just going to make the table play more sloppy, unless that's what you want;)

Glen
Click to expand...
The pocket width is on the outer limits of regulation...I mean there like a full 5.25" wide.....yeah....there buckets. I was wondering when pockets are shimmed, is the width at the inner part of the rubber kept close to the same and the outer part of the cushion is shimmed? If they are shimmed this way it would close the angle at which the rubber comes out, thus when shooting rail shots it would cause the OB to bounce towards the pocket...which in turn might help solve my problem. Does any of that makes sense?

Thanks,
Matt
 
Big Pockets

Don't quote me, but I think if you had the pockets tightened up (shimmed or subrails extended) it would reduce the shelf on the slate. At least that is how I picture it in my head. You might be able to tighten the pockets a little and find a happy medium.
 
One thing you could do, not requiring actually cutting the slate and frame would be to file or route the pocket edges so that they are more conducive to the ball dropping. I believe the regulation spec is 1/4" radius on the roundoff, but you could cheat on this a little.

Make some cardboard cut outs of what subrail extentions would do to the shelf depth. As noted above, that might shorten the shelf, and give you more standard pocket size at the same time.

I've played on some of those GC's with big pockets and shelfs, and did not like them. I prefer the pockets at 4.5" with a 1.25" shelf.

You could try shooting your rail shots with outside english ... sometimes helps them run down the rail better.
 
Dead Crab said:
I've played on some of those GC's with big pockets and shelfs, and did not like them. I prefer the pockets at 4.5" with a 1.25" shelf.
Click to expand...
Yeah....that sound ideal. Much better than a 5.25" pocket and a 2 1/8" shelf!!!! When I was talking to Bob Owen, he did mention that I might be able to file the drop off a little.

And like CamposCues said, by tightening the pockets will help alone...at least I am in agreement with.
 
mattman said:
Yeah....that sound ideal. Much better than a 5.25" pocket and a 2 1/8" shelf!!!! When I was talking to Bob Owen, he did mention that I might be able to file the drop off a little.

And like CamposCues said, by tightening the pockets will help alone...at least I am in agreement with.
Click to expand...
CamposCues is correct. By narrowing the pockets to an opening of 4 1/2" it also cuts down the area for a ball to rest in the pocket more to the front and center of the pocket opening. Also changing the pocket angles will help make the pockets play more consistent, but even the facing material used is as important as the pocket angles. Your problem is in the pockets, not the slate Matt.

Glen
 
mattman said:
I am not sure if we're on the same page because you kind of lost me. I am soley talking about the corner pockets. I know you measure the width of the pockets from the tip of the cushion to the opposite cushion tip. The shelf is from that imaginary line to where the pocket drops off...this is what I am calling the shelf. I'm wanting to remove material from where the pocket drops towards the playing surface of the table. To clue you in why I want to shorten the shelf depth is because I have a problem with rail shots that are a moderate speed and above, "rattling" in the pocket. Bar tables have a very short shelf depth. I also went to a place here in town that Bob Owen (Gabe Owen's dad) owns. He just has 4 tables, but I noticed that the shelf on his GCIII's had a short shelf and thought if mine were like his, I would not have such an issue with balls "rattling" in the pocket on moderate to fast rails shots.

Thanks
Matt
Click to expand...

I would suggest practicing and becoming more accurate with your shots before altering the table to fit your game.
 
Bigjohn said:
I would suggest practicing and becoming more accurate with your shots before altering the table to fit your game.
Click to expand...
I don't think that is the problem. I understand the faster that the ball is traveling down the rail, the less margin of error that you have. I don't remember my table having these issues before I had new cushions installed a couple years ago. I couldn't tell you what the pocket width was back then, but I just don't ever remember having such issues.
 
Well, if you were not having problems before cushions, thats where i would start. Check all angles of pockets including the downward angle
of the facings. Also check the facings. We have seen some new rock hard facings that will kick balls out something terrible.
 
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