Digging into the cue ball for side spin

M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Billiards players are known for digging into their cue ball for extreme english to avoid a miscue. Can this be done without elevating the back end of the cue stick?

Swerve can be done with a follow or draw stroke, but is this considered digging in? Efren digs into the cue ball and stays very close to center ball. He is also an accomplished billiards player and admits he spins the cue ball too much. I wish I had his faults. :grin:

Is a digging in stroke meant to avoid a miscue, or is it used to gain more spin or both? I dig in without moving the tip to the outside of the cue ball (back hand english) and follow through almost as if I am moving back to its center or straight ahead.

I can also curve slightly around object balls without elevating my cue when I use this stroke, about an eighth inch or so depending on the distance away. Another interesting thing is, it seems the closer I stay to center, the more spin I get.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Billiards players are known for digging into their cue ball for extreme english to avoid a miscue. Can this be done without elevating the back end of the cue stick?

Swerve can be done with a follow or draw stroke, but is this considered digging in? Efren digs into the cue ball and stays very close to center ball. He is also an accomplished billiards player and admits he spins the cue ball too much. I wish I had his faults. :grin:

Is a digging in stroke meant to avoid a miscue, or is it used to gain more spin or both? I dig in without moving the tip to the outside of the cue ball (back hand english) and follow through almost as if I am moving back to its center or straight ahead.

I can also curve slightly around object balls without elevating my cue when I use this stroke, about an eighth inch or so depending on the distance away. Another interesting thing is, it seems the closer I stay to center, the more spin I get.

Best,
Mike
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Mike:

Interesting you mention both billiards players and Efren. Even though the styles are VERY different, and even though the cue ball leaves the cue tip at 1/1000th of a second, both try to maximize the results of the contact time they have.

Efren does it with a soft stroke, and "feeling" the cue rebound off of the cue ball. You can see it when he delivers the cue -- that trademark "stroke-stroke-stroke [practice strokes, that is] followed by a pause at the cue ball, finished with stroke-and-then-immediate-delivery" with a very light grip. It's almost like he's throwing the cue into the ball, and feeling the <ponk!> resonance of the delivery. I think the intent is to maximize the results of the contact time with the cue ball. Sure, the stroke instructors may say it's psychosomatic, but I think there's something to it.

So in a way, I think Efren's "digging into" the cue ball by letting the cue's natural momentum do all the work.

As far as carom/billiard players go, don't forget the balls are larger, so there's more radius to "play with" when hitting the ball.

Just IMHO,
-Sean
 
Mikjary said:
Billiards players are known for digging into their cue ball for extreme english to avoid a miscue. Can this be done without elevating the back end of the cue stick?
Click to expand...

The more deliberate the stroke the more extreme position the cue can contact the ball without a miscue. This means the stroke is smooth, even paced, the cue is held lightly; and with as much gentleness as possible, the cue tip pushes right on through the cue ball without the first hint of deceleration through impact.

This deliberateness helps with draw, follow and left or right spin.

Swerve can be done with a follow or draw stroke, but is this considered digging in?
Click to expand...

Never heard the term "diggin in", however, most of my curves are very gently massé shots where the but remains in the normal (down) position and the shot just looks like a draw shot with a lot of left or right spin. 1/4 ball width curve is possible. As you increase the height of the but towards about 45 degrees and curve the CB 1.5 to 2 feet. Above about 20 degrees it is difficult to avoid having the tip make contact with the cloth.

Is a digging in stroke meant to avoid a miscue, or is it used to gain more spin or both?
Click to expand...

In my case its more for spin, the tip is holding the CB on the cloth which allows more force to develop and results in more spin. It also enables the CB to jump off the table (which prevents the spin from doing what you wanted--so be carefuly deliberate.)

I can also curve slightly around object balls without elevating my cue when I use this stroke, about an eighth inch or so depending on the distance away.
Click to expand...

The angle of the cue wrt the CB determines how far down the table the CB will travel before the spin cruves the ball (CB velocity also plays a roll here).

The offset from center (left or right) will determine how much curve takes place (Cue Stick velocity plays a significant roll here.)

Using both angulation and offset gives you significant control over where the curve takes place and how much curve takes place.

Corner to corner on a 9 foot table with 860 cloth should allow you to curve the CB up to 2 feet without anything other than a good stroke and good knoledge of the gentle massé.
 
Mike -- it's not clear to me what you mean by "digging into" the CB. Your post would seem to indicate that it doesn't necessarily relate to the angle of the stick or the amount of tip offset from center. Please explain what you mean by this stroke.
 
There is no digging into the cue ball, listen to the other lad that told you its gone off it at 1/000th of a second, this is a proven fact, where is the time to dig in, or grab, answer, there is none, its all old bad data you have been sold you need to dump.

Like ray martin tried to tell you, before a mod erased his post, its all about the purity of the hit through the ball. You all all swiping and glancing off of the ball, like a boxer with a glancing blow where the oppenent slips the punch. You need to learn to hit down the line and keep going through the ball, for the power you seek.

It takes a good teaching pro, at least an hour or two, to teach you how to do this, and when you get it, then and only then can you advance into the higher ranks. Am I going to teach it to you, no. Go buy it, like I did.
 
Efren's fast and loose start to his shot is probably more than a strange habit. Busty, Parica and Alex, all display these relaxation techniques. When Parica misstrokes a shot he will immediately do several loosening up movements with his stroking wrist. Alex does something similar. Busty starts like Efren with a few quick strokes and moves into a regular rhythm.

Efren's loose delivery at his finish is cued mainly close to center. Yet he develops a great deal of spin. Loose hands are fast hands in any sport and he is the poster child as far as I'm concerned in pool. Busty is a close second.

Best,
Mike
 
MitchAlsup said:
The more deliberate the stroke the more extreme position the cue can contact the ball without a miscue. This means the stroke is smooth, even paced, the cue is held lightly; and with as much gentleness as possible, the cue tip pushes right on through the cue ball without the first hint of deceleration through impact.

This deliberateness helps with draw, follow and left or right spin.



Never heard the term "diggin in", however, most of my curves are very gently massé shots where the but remains in the normal (down) position and the shot just looks like a draw shot with a lot of left or right spin. 1/4 ball width curve is possible. As you increase the height of the but towards about 45 degrees and curve the CB 1.5 to 2 feet. Above about 20 degrees it is difficult to avoid having the tip make contact with the cloth.



In my case its more for spin, the tip is holding the CB on the cloth which allows more force to develop and results in more spin. It also enables the CB to jump off the table (which prevents the spin from doing what you wanted--so be carefuly deliberate.)



The angle of the cue wrt the CB determines how far down the table the CB will travel before the spin cruves the ball (CB velocity also plays a roll here).

The offset from center (left or right) will determine how much curve takes place (Cue Stick velocity plays a significant roll here.)

Using both angulation and offset gives you significant control over where the curve takes place and how much curve takes place.

Corner to corner on a 9 foot table with 860 cloth should allow you to curve the CB up to 2 feet without anything other than a good stroke and good knoledge of the gentle massé.
Click to expand...

This is what I was trying to look at further than just curving around an object ball. I believe this stroke is the culprit for a lot of misses of extreme spin on shots. The uneducated player can't see the result of their stroke and understand where they contacted the object ball. It happens too fast and the stroke is not known, so duplicating the same process without knowledge of the stroke and its path are guesswork at best.

With knowledge of what the stroke is capable of achieving, the player can control the cue ball better on extreme spin shots. Digging in is a term I've heard used for this stroke over the years, but I'd like to hear about a few other definitions and uses.

Best,
Mike
 
AtLarge said:
Mike -- it's not clear to me what you mean by "digging into" the CB. Your post would seem to indicate that it doesn't necessarily relate to the angle of the stick or the amount of tip offset from center. Please explain what you mean by this stroke.
Click to expand...

Even though the tip is only contacting the cue ball for a very short time frame, why are some strokes able to develop much more spin than others? To dig in, at least in my words, is to apply a greater amount of spin with a quick delivery of the tip as it hits the cue ball. Not a masse' or punch stroke, but rather a smooth, level stroke closer to center ball than the edge.

Letting the cue do some of the work and a looseness like Efren displays are visual cues I use to explain my thoughts. How is it possible to do this and still cue close to center ball?

Best,
Mike
 
No.

Mikjary said:
Billiards players are known for digging into their cue ball for extreme english to avoid a miscue. Can this be done without elevating the back end of the cue stick?Swerve can be done with a follow or draw stroke, but is this considered digging in? Efren digs into the cue ball and stays very close to center ball. He is also an accomplished billiards player and admits he spins the cue ball too much. I wish I had his faults. :grin:

Is a digging in stroke meant to avoid a miscue, or is it used to gain more spin or both? I dig in without moving the tip to the outside of the cue ball (back hand english) and follow through almost as if I am moving back to its center or straight ahead.

I can also curve slightly around object balls without elevating my cue when I use this stroke, about an eighth inch or so depending on the distance away. Another interesting thing is, it seems the closer I stay to center, the more spin I get.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

To answer your question, No.
When is the back end of your cue NOT elevated?
If the rail height is near the center height of the CB, and you aim the tip at the center of the CB or a millimeter below, with the back of your cue above the rail.....then your cue is elevated.
I consider all my shots, as if they are Masse shots. Even with above center english, if you elevate the back of your cue in relation to the tip's elevation, you should impart more spin than with a level cue.
That's probably why Masse shots are considered the most difficult. It's very hard to judge/control the angle of your cue stick from 0 to 90 degrees.

Note: even 1 millimeter away from the, 3 dimensional, center of the cue ball will impart spin. So, shots that appear to be center CB aim (no english), may in fact have english applied. Most good masse shooters are aiming in relation to the 3D center of the CB, not the 2D (Dart-Bulls Eye) image of center CB.
 
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Curly Howard said:
There is no digging into the cue ball, listen to the other lad that told you its gone off it at 1/000th of a second, this is a proven fact, where is the time to dig in, or grab, answer, there is none, its all old bad data you have been sold you need to dump.

Like ray martin tried to tell you, before a mod erased his post, its all about the purity of the hit through the ball. You all all swiping and glancing off of the ball, like a boxer with a glancing blow where the oppenent slips the punch. You need to learn to hit down the line and keep going through the ball, for the power you seek. It takes a good teaching pro, at least an hour or two, to teach you how to do this, and when you get it, then and only then can you advance into the higher ranks. Am I going to teach it to you, no. Go buy it, like I did.
Click to expand...

I believe this is the ultimate goal of every athlete, a smooth follow through even though the athletic movement has already been accomplished. It promotes the correct path for the stroke, swing, kick, etc. and development of power.

I've hung with the world beaters and taken personal lessons from US Open winners on down. I'm friends with pros and talk with them every few days. Though the road trips are things of the past and some of my friends write articles and books more than they play anymore, I still pick the brains of whomever I meet. Like Efren said, he learns shots by watching somebody miss badly...or something like that. :grin:

I pay for it every time I buy a dvd or book. I've donated many dollars without a spot to champions and never complained. Mr. Martin is right. But he also means that through many long hours of dedicated practice, you learn what you can do with your stroke. If, along the way, you pick up a free tip or tidbit, you're lucky. Although I've had some great teachers, I've had some dogs, too. I won't mention their names because that's my opinion and that's not worth a penny.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
I believe this is the ultimate goal of every athlete, a smooth follow through even though the athletic movement has already been accomplished. It promotes the correct path for the stroke, swing, kick, etc. and development of power.

I've hung with the world beaters and taken personal lessons from US Open winners on down. I'm friends with pros and talk with them every few days. Though the road trips are things of the past and some of my friends write articles and books more than they play anymore, I still pick the brains of whomever I meet. Like Efren said, he learns shots by watching somebody miss badly...or something like that. :grin:

I pay for it every time I buy a dvd or book. I've donated many dollars without a spot to champions and never complained. Mr. Martin is right. But he also means that through many long hours of dedicated practice, you learn what you can do with your stroke. If, along the way, you pick up a free tip or tidbit, you're lucky. Although I've had some great teachers, I've had some dogs, too. I won't mention their names because that's my opinion and that's not worth a penny.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Great post, and I still like your tits, dont tell me your a guy, that is crushing. why show the hottie, if you are some biker dude.
 
okinawa77 said:
To answer your question, No.
When is the back end of your cue NOT elevated?
If the rail height is near the center height of the CB, and you aim the tip at the center of the CB or a millimeter below, with the back of your cue above the rail.....then your cue is elevated.
I consider all my shots, as if they are Masse shots. Even with above center english, if you elevate the back of your cue in relation to the tip's elevation, you should impart more spin than with a level cue.
That's probably why Masse shots are considered the most difficult. It's very hard to judge/control the angle of your cue stick from 0 to 90 degrees.

Note: even 1 millimeter away from the, 3 dimensional, center of the cue ball will impart spin. So, shots that appear to be center CB aim (no english), may in fact have english applied. Most good masse shooters are aiming in relation to the 3D center of the CB, not the 2D (Dart-Bulls Eye) image of center CB.
Click to expand...

O77,

I agree the cue is mainly elevated on shots (maybe Diamond will figure out how to get rid of the rails like they did with the pockets). This is a factor, but level cue is meant like the phrase level bat. It is a term relative to an intuitive relationship the user has with their perceived movement and its outcome. I need to rest after that sentence.

Thank you for the clarification and insight into what we think we are doing and what we are really, in effect, doing. Whoa!! Did I sound like PJ for a minute there?

Best,
Mike
 
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