Does anyone align their site completely with the stick direction?

[iusedtoberich]

I have not tried this eye alignment method when I started the thread:

Put your vision center aligned completely with the stick/stroke direction. Not with the CB, not with the OB, not with the "theoretical, non-friction" Ghost Ball. Let's call it a "ghost stick point" near the OB.

If you are lined up perfectly on the shot, already accounting for all cut and english "real world friction effects", you would extend a line from your stick to near the OB. Wherever that line would land near the OB to make the shot, is where your vision center would lock onto. Depending on the cut angle, english applied, squirt of the stick, throw of the CB/OB collision, speed, and swerve characteristics of the ball and cloth, this spot could fall somewhere on the OB, or it could fall over a ball's width away from its edge.

My hypothesis is this will keep your brain from steering the stick, because the eyes would be aligned with the actual stick/stroke direction.

Its perhaps a takeaway or adding onto Geno's lessons, which I've had a few of over the years.

I'm sort of doing this now, but I'm using the CB "real world ghost ball position" (which accounts for all spin/friction effects) to align my eyes to, rather than the stick direction.

Asking if anyone might already be doing this. I'll be trying it this coming week.

Thanks

 

[tomatoshooter]

I only do that when in hitting on the vertical axis of the cue ball. If I'm using English, I set up normally and then adjust.

If i understand you correctly, I can believe that would help keep your stroke straight but I currently align my sight with where the cue ball will hopefully be when it connects the object ball.

 

[Poolmanis]

Put your vision center aligned completely with the stick/stroke direction. Not with the CB, not with the OB, not with the "theoretical, non-friction" Ghost Ball. Let's call it a "ghost stick point" near the OB.

If you are lined up perfectly on the shot, already accounting for all cut and english "real world friction effects", you would extend a line from your stick to near the OB. Wherever that line would land near the OB to make the shot, is where your vision center would lock onto. Depending on the cut angle, english applied, squirt of the stick, throw of the CB/OB collision, speed, and swerve characteristics of the ball and cloth, this spot could fall somewhere on the OB, or it could fall over a ball's width away from its edge.

My hypothesis is this will keep your brain from steering the stick, because the eyes would be aligned with the actual stick/stroke direction.

Its perhaps a takeaway or adding onto Geno's lessons, which I've had a few of over the years.

I'm sort of doing this now, but I'm using the CB "real world ghost ball position" (which accounts for all spin/friction effects) to align my eyes to, rather than the stick direction.

Asking if anyone might already be doing this. I'll be trying it this coming week.

Thanks

I am.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I sight along the stick to “measure” cut angles - by pointing the cue a memorized/recognized distance from the OB contact point. My version of ghost ball, I suppose, though I don’t visualize it that way.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

I don’t completely understand what you’re saying, so let me ask you a question or two
When you apply English the cue stick is not pointing along the shot line
, so are you saying that you are looking along the stick pointing wherever it is pointing and not looking at the shot line?

 

[iusedtoberich]

I don’t completely understand what you’re saying, so let me ask you a question or two
When you apply English the cue stick is not pointing along the shot line
, so are you saying that you are looking along the stick pointing wherever it is pointing and not looking at the shot line?

Correct.

I have not done this yet though except on my ironing board and a couple of balls. The stick line diverges from any other “shot line” except for a perfectly straight stop shot.

I put the shot line in quotes because it probably means different things to different people.

 

[bbb]

Correct.

I have not done this yet though except on my ironing board and a couple of balls. The stick line diverges from any other “shot line” except for a perfectly straight stop shot.

I put the shot line in quotes because it probably means different things to different people.

Thanks for the reply

 

[garczar]

I hope no-one asks me to dissect my method(s). I'm such a feel/vision based shooter that trying to describe it probably would sound like justnum on a bad day. See it, feel it, send it. Sound lame? Probably is but so be it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I ... probably would sound like justnum on a bad day.

So you'd make sense...

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...are you saying that you are looking along the stick pointing wherever it is pointing and not looking at the shot line?

Yes and no. I'm looking along the stick, but I'm also aware of ("looking at") the shot line in my (slightly) peripheral view.

pj
chgo

 

[snookered_again]

I was watching a video on how to aim with reference to the ghost ball and realized that maybe I'm aiming to the spot opposite the pocket on the object ball and not to the center of the ghost ball.
I tried to imagine the ghost ball and where the center of it would be and realized Ive learned to compensate for that and I found it was throwing me off to try to aim at the centerball of the ghostball... It made me wonder if I'd learned a bad habit and I'm compensating for it. obviously Im looking at the pinpoint opposite the pocket and I'm hitting it, but I'm also compensating because with any cut shot the center line is with the position of the ghost ball and not the contact point of the obect ball. I still seem to shoot best if my focus is upon that pinoint opposite the pocket.

as ball sizes change between 8 ball and snooker I guess Im compansating. It did ocurr to me that the compensation is different but it all
seems to happen naturally.
let me explain that better. the contact point and the center of the ghostball are two different things in reality. as the ball size increases, the difference betwenn the two also increases. The more I try to reason all that, the more it seems to mess me up, why ? I guess because I'm naturally compensating. and thinking about it too deeply is confusing me.

last night i was practicing sinking the black ball from about the mid point of the rail, basically opposite from the pocket but not in a straight line. I could sink the ball pretty consistently with no spin and have been trying left and right english and seeing where the cue ball ends up, trying to learn to control my cue ball positioning better by using spin to my advantage.

as I hit center left or center right I miss of course if I don't make an allowance. and so try to compensate. How do I do this correctly? I tried aiming not at the pocket to compensate. a little to the right or left of where the pocket actually is. this helped me somewhat but Im not sure it's the right way about it.

if I apply side spin to long shot then sure I can compensate for that, but the accuracy may be improved, I'm learning to compensate more by practice than theory and it may help to apply more theory. I think I'm getting better at predicting and succeeeding with decisions of the stopping point of my cue ball, it proves I am learning.

I have more to learn about my aiming techniques. I think my stroke and accuracy on long shots has improved. its the offset, squirt and things affected by spin I'm still trying to wrap my head around better. Id also like to learn to predict carom shots better.

Its a good topic, stuff I'm trying to learn. a lot of this I think you just do learn as you try to spin balls accurately and it comes, but I'd like to avoid picking up bad aiming habits before I instill them more permanently. It would be interesting to get more input from players that have worked through all this . Its definitely a learning curve.

I should probably read more on the theory of aiming. the theory helps if I dont become overwhelmed and confused, and practice between accepting new theory helps. I'm very fortunate that I do have more experienced players to learn from and they do kick my ass on a pretty regular basis. I have my own table to practice on for a couple of hours daily and that's a huge help.

As I grow I do get encouragement and hear the positive comments as I make good shots. the positive comments really help a lot when they actually feel deserved. It's quite addictive!

 

[iusedtoberich]

I finally tried this today. My table is full of crap so only had half of it, and only tried about 40 or 50 shots. It felt a bit funny at first. My stroke felt super straight, but I was missing the ball. I kept at it and it got better, and then I was pocketing most of the balls. I was aiming in my usual way, which is just a memorization/feel of what the overlaps between the CB and OB looks like on any given shot situation. Then with that locked in, I was seeing where the center of the tip was pointing, and locking my eyes to that spot. Sometimes, I was also using where the left or right edge of the shaft pointed to as a place to lock my eyes, if that pointed to a more noticeable spot on the OB for some hits. I would expect if I keep at this, I would instinctively line up my eyes this way, rather than line up my current way, and then shift my eyes to this new line.

I've never used the shaft to aim before. Only the CB "path" on its way to the OB. This felt foreign, but promising at the same time.

I'll clean my table and give this a few hours later in the week. Back to the dayjob

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've never used the shaft to aim before. Only the CB "path" on its way to the OB.

I'll bet you could do both. You already do, in a sense - but maybe only one consciously. Being aware of the cue's angle too might help with sidespin shots.

pj
chgo

 

[snookered_again]

I think a lot of this is muscle memory, Like how you can get good at throwing a ball. there is no aiming other than the final destination and you throw things in an arc. we accomplish this quite well considering all the muscles and mental calculations we are actually involving.

I think humans are evolved in this respect because throwing a rock can mean the difference between living and starvation out in the wild. people who couldn't hit a bird starved and were less likely to reproduce.

I generally look at the ball from standing, decide where it is going how hard what spin, look for the correct contact point, go down hopefully with good foot placement . look at the object ball and it's relationship to the pocket, my eye will go to the pocket, then look for the contact point, then look at my cue to cue ball placement, then back to the contact point , then shoot while trained upon the contact point. If I don't like my foot placement of something seems not right, maybe stand and repeat these things fairly quickly.

. I might not be doing things right. That's quite possible.. Some seem to be able to go from the standing position without their eye leaving the ball and there may be weight to that , but I guess anyone also needs to look where the cue ball is and bridge in the right spot.

I find I do want to sort of scan between the OB and pocket, when down. I dont know if that's a bad habit. Thing is, like on a long shot that is a sharp cut to a corner, Its easier to judge the distance between the OB and back rail when standing.
in the shooting position and down on the table the depth perception is not so great. I think this is why a new player will often shoot from a higher position and as they gain practice they want to be lower and have a better view of their cue during the shot, maybe using their peripheral vision somewhat. some do chin against cue, others find that position too awkward. maybe it's a good habit but I'm not seeing everyone go that low. some of the better snooker players maybe.

it might be really common that people do pick up bad habits and overcome them through practice but if they are taught the "correct habits" from the get go, maybe that helps in the long run.

Us humans have incredible abilities to adapt through practice. how we relate a "miss" to future muscle - eye - coordination correction is a bit hard to understand,
Obviously we can do this , and grow better, I think we can adjust and improve almost without thinking. there is definitely benefit to being relaxed and not overthinking every aspect of a shot at once.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Quick update: I cleared my table yesterday and have donkeyed off my dayjob a few hrs in the past 2 days.

It seems really promising. When the “ghost stick point” falls on the OB or very close to it (within its shadow) it’s easy to stay locked into that spot with my eyes. I do feel the stroke is staying straight.

When the “ghost stick point” is far from the OB, I was finding my eyes wandering back and forth to the OB and the point.

I also found some situations I didn’t feel very comfortable and was taking baby strokes to try to keep my eyes locked. Meaning it was hampering my stroke speed. Sort of playing scared.

I was mostly playing racks to get a feel for a wide variety of shots. I’ll next probably break it down and work on the trouble shots specifically.

All in all I think I’m going to keep at it another week and then decide if to incorporate into my game full time.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I couldn't stop playing. Everything is becoming super crisp. I didn't do trouble shots, I just wanted to keep playing. I may try a ghost set tomorrow to see how I do. It could very well be just the plecebo of paying more attention, too! ha ha

 

[boogieman]

Put your vision center aligned completely with the stick/stroke direction. Not with the CB, not with the OB, not with the "theoretical, non-friction" Ghost Ball. Let's call it a "ghost stick point" near the OB.

If you are lined up perfectly on the shot, already accounting for all cut and english "real world friction effects", you would extend a line from your stick to near the OB. Wherever that line would land near the OB to make the shot, is where your vision center would lock onto. Depending on the cut angle, english applied, squirt of the stick, throw of the CB/OB collision, speed, and swerve characteristics of the ball and cloth, this spot could fall somewhere on the OB, or it could fall over a ball's width away from its edge.

My hypothesis is this will keep your brain from steering the stick, because the eyes would be aligned with the actual stick/stroke direction.

Its perhaps a takeaway or adding onto Geno's lessons, which I've had a few of over the years.

I'm sort of doing this now, but I'm using the CB "real world ghost ball position" (which accounts for all spin/friction effects) to align my eyes to, rather than the stick direction.

Asking if anyone might already be doing this. I'll be trying it this coming week.

Thanks

This is basically how I do it. It sounds silly but the stick is basically aligned to the contact point. I just know how to make the balls rub together when they hit. It changes with speed/spin so just like you said you come down accounting for this. SEE FOLLOW UP POST

If you can make this part of your PSR it's pretty powerful: Take a full breath while standing with feet in place and looking at the shot and breathe it out fully, get down into stance. You should be exactly lined up. Take practice strokes if you like. Take another non rushed full breath in and out, when your breath is out feather your cue and you will notice it is dead straight. Shoot the ball.

(I'm not going to say to do this, but I've found with this "breathwork" you can honestly forget about the OB once down and watch the tip on the CB, OB's aligned and you took a dead sighting on it while getting down, OB don't move, your base and alignment is more rock solid than ever)

Believe it or not it's just like target shooting. When your lungs are full you are tense and also can't bend as easy since it's like having air sacs in your torso that don't want to bend.

The act of doing this will get you on the shot line and will provide a very steady and tension free base to work with. You can continue to shoot how you prefer, just the emptying of the lungs does wonders. If you have real good body awareness you can shoot between heartbeats. Sounds woo woo but it's a skill you can acquire.

Again, it's preference, but by looking at CB last you can get PINPOINT and make sure your stroke is going exactly how you want it by looking at the feather strokes. That OB is set in place and as long as you did your job getting down it will not move. I've been practicing this lately and it's made my game much stronger. The breathing reduces errors from rushing, you have less tension in your muscles, and focusing on breathing gets you out of your head and into the execution part of the shot.

 

[DeadStick]

This is basically how I do it. It sounds silly but the stick is basically aligned to the contact point.

Are you saying you align your cue to the contact point on the OB? I’m not sure how that works on anything but a straight shot, unless you’re always using the right amount of inside english to deflect the CB to a thinner hit.

by looking at CB last you can get PINPOINT and make sure your stroke is going exactly how you want it by looking at the feather strokes. That OB is set in place and as long as you did your job getting down it will not move. I've been practicing this lately and it's made my game much stronger.

I couldn’t agree more! I’ve been a “look at OB last before pulling the trigger” guy my whole life, since that seems to be the consensus opinion, until a couple of months ago when I decided to practice extreme focus on the CB and the tip position last, and my game has markedly improved.

The big benefit for me is that I try to observe tip-CB contact happen, and then let my focus follow the CB on its way to the OB, observing its path, spin, spin decay, and speed. It’s a level of awareness of my CB action I’ve never had before. It’s almost like time slows down and I’m “one” with the CB as it travels away from me. I can actually observe the squirt and swerve in real time when applying sidespin - which of course helps my brain figure out how to compensate aim better and better on those shots over time.

A secondary benefit is that I have a much better peripheral focus on my shaft’s path while drawing the cue back, then stroking it forward, which aids in keeping my stroke straight and tip contact point precise.

In short, I’m a firm believer now that, for me, “the CB is the target,” and if I align to the shot line properly, there’s no need to look back up at the OB before pulling the trigger.

I’m also a decent golfer (3 index) and tennis player (small college scholarship), and I use the same extreme focus on the ball while striking it in those sports.

 

[boogieman]

Are you saying you align your cue to the contact point on the OB? I’m not sure how that works on anything but a straight shot, unless you’re always using the right amount of inside english to deflect the CB to a thinner hit.

No I described it wrong, didn't realize. I'm accounting for where the CB hits the OB and hitting not really at a ghost ball but... basically I know where the CB has to hit the OB. You could say it was at the center of the ghost ball for easy visualization, but I don't visualize a ghost ball. Something more akin to fractional hits but it's more of a feel thing, corrected for deflection/spin/etc.

Sorry it's difficult to describe but basically HAMB has muddied my ability to explain it.

In short, I’m a firm believer now that, for me, “the CB is the target,” and if I align to the shot line properly, there’s no need to look back up at the OB before pulling the trigger.

It's nuts but it works! The key is you have to get your alignment to a trustworthy level. The breathing out is what got me to this. Basically I can get down with no tension in my body and no leaning/off balance type situations. It's taken a lot of work but I feel like the breathing out part is what really made it possible. I have a lot of tense muscles and bad back crap going on constantly and this helped with a trustworthy base.

 

[DeadStick]

No I described it wrong, didn't realize. I'm accounting for where the CB hits the OB and hitting not really at a ghost ball but... basically I know where the CB has to hit the OB. You could say it was at the center of the ghost ball for easy visualization, but I don't visualize a ghost ball. Something more akin to fractional hits but it's more of a feel thing, corrected for deflection/spin/etc.

Sorry it's difficult to describe but basically HAMB has muddied my ability to explain it.

That sounds exactly the same as what I do, except I can/do visualize a ghost ball (and usually also visualize a “rail” that the GB and OB are frozen to, if the OB isn’t already on or very near a rail, leading to the part of the pocket I want to hit), and I aim at the center of that GB (unless compensating for sidespin).

The breathing out is what got me to this. Basically I can get down with no tension in my body and no leaning/off balance type situations. It's taken a lot of work but I feel like the breathing out part is what really made it possible. I have a lot of tense muscles and bad back crap going on constantly and this helped with a trustworthy base.

I’ve been working hard on my PSR, but I’m glad you mentioned your breathing technique. That’s the only thing I’ve ignored so far, but I’m going to give your method a try.

Funny you mentioned back issues. I herniated my L4-5 disc four months ago, with extreme sciatic pain down my right leg (my first back issue ever), and had microdiscectomy surgery to repair it two months ago. Healing well, but can’t golf for another couple of months. Thankfully doesn’t bother me much to shoot pool, hence my recent re-focus on my pool game.