Does Charlie have "IT"

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Keith Legros

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Now that Charlie Williams has won a couple of tournaments I am wondering if he has "It"

By "It", I mean would his presence at any tournament automatically make it a prestigious event, thus drawing more spectators than normal.

Or to put it another way, if pool was like tennis and Charlie was playing center court would it sell out, be half full or just another match?

Do people really want to watch this guy play?

Players that I think would "sell out center court"

# 1 - Earl Strickland.

Also: Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Johnny Archer, Steve Davis, Ralph Souquet, Cory Deuel, Mika Immonen, Ching Shun Yang, Karen Corr, Alison Fisher, Jeanette Lee.

Also worth mentioning would be players like: Nick Varner, Alex Pagulayan, Buddy Hall, Nick Van Den Berg, Neils Feijen, Oliver Ortmann.

And Maybe's : Jeremy Jones, Shannon Daulton, Kim Davenport, George San Souci, Fabio Petroni, Fong Pang Chao.

Finally: Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich, Marcus Chamat, Grady Mathews, Mike Massey, John Horsfall.

Now, I have never seen Charlie in person, but I have hours upon hous of tapes from the World Championship and Mosconi Cup events.

I have watched these tapes over and over and over and over..etc.

The one player I cannot stand to watch is Charlie.

This does not mean I hate the guy or anything, I just cannot stand to watch him play.

He reminds me of "Geraldo"..........the T.V. Talk show guy.

Geraldo would have this GREAT BIG build up before each commercial and come back with nothing.

Charlie shoots that way.........he has this way of "winding" his cue like he really means business and makes it seems like it's the shot from hell that he is facing. He does this way to often.

It is very irritating for me anyways.

Anyway the players I like watching are the players that play at a nice steady pace, observe the table fairly qiuckly and have a nice smooth stroke.

So obviously Charlie is not on my list of players that I would go anywhere near out of my way to watch.

What are your thoughts?

Keith Legros
 
Selling out center court, eh?

I've seen taped TV matches with some of the names that you mentioned as having drawing power, and what passed for stands was about 1/3rd full. Looks like the tournament director could have at least gone out and got some homeless people to fill up the joint.

Come to think of it, some of the people in the stands in those TV matches did look like they were from off the street. :)

I stopped by a much-promoted Senior tour stop in Biloxi a couple of years ago, and there was no admission charge for coming in and watching!! (Hall, Parica, Rempe, etc, were there)

Does anybody really think ANY pool player out there has serious, big-time drawing power??
 
Unfortunately I have to agree with you Cactus. It's a shame but I don't think there is much interest in men's pool right now. I think the women have a much better draw right now. If Jeanette lee was playing, I think there would be some possiblility that the tournament might get some seats filled.
 
When Charlie played Earl in Orlando all eyes were on the table.
Then at another match at Spring Hill when Charlie played an unknown nobody bothered to watch. And that is the problem with pool. When the games are a good match between top players people will watch but don't bother when the matches are with unknowns, or much weaker players. Much weaker that is as compared to the top pros. And for that reason I doubt that I will attend anymore Fridays or Saturdays becuse they just are too boring. Especially when they are seeding the matches so that you know no top players will be facing each other. Jake
 
"When Charlie played Earl in Orlando all eyes were on the table."

"Then at another match at Spring Hill when Charlie played an uknown nobody bothered to watch"


Had Earl played this "nobody" I would bet that people would watch.

Keith Legros
 
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I've always wondered why pool events in the US are not that very much well attended considering that 9-ball started in the US. In Manila, everytime there is a big tournament, you can expect it to be standing room only. Like the Europe vs Philippines invitational last July. The venue was packed with more people waiting outside hoping for the chance to get inside the venue. The organizers even have to put big screens outside the venue so that the people who wasn't able to get in can still catch the action
 
I think a lot of it has to do with all the sports venues in the US. If you go to a pro sports event like football, baseball, tennis, golf, basketball, etc, etc, you will find large crowds. We are inundated with professional sports activities here. Not only that, but pool is just not appealing enough to most of the people here. It is seen as a dirty gambling game where the outcome is probably rigged. That movie "The Color of Money" didn't help much either. When Vincent stalled in the game with Eddie towards the end for money, that confirmed what a lot of people thought all along.
 
In my opinion, I think the problem is the game itself. When I say the game, I mean 9-ball. 9-ball is fun to play, and some people even use it to gamble (no, you say). But watching the men pros play is not the most exciting thing in the world. For one, the men make two or three balls on the break. They almost always run out if they make a ball and get a shot on the next. The races are usually short, so one mistake can cost them the match. Therefore, they play tediously slow to get perfect position. Watching Buddy Hall play 9-ball is about as much fun as watching paint dry.

I wonder what would happen if straight pool made a comeback. In order to play 14.1 well, you need a decent rythm. I never saw him play, but they say Mosconi practically danced around the table while running racks.

How about a Challenge of Champions sort of tournament playing one pocket, race to one! Talk about some pressure shots!

They say 9-ball is good for TV because it's fast. I disagree. It may be good for TV because the rules are so simple. What's bad for TV is Eva Mataya ooh-ing and ahh-ing over ridiculously simple shots the ladies make.

Anyway, with all of the cable channels out there, you'd think someone would try something new. This World Poker Tour has become incredibly popular. I think that is because of the drama of the flop and the drama of the bluff all while keeping a poker face.

I feel very strongly about what I'm about to say...in order to really tap into what makes the poolplayer's heartbeat rise, gambling has to be accepted for what it is. It's part of the game. Always has been. Always will be. Always. Enough of this politically correct horseshit that the game's image must improve.

How about a poolroom reality show. If it brings in the ratings, sponsors are not going to give a rat's ass about "the image of the game". Use maybe a half dozen poolrooms across the country, and just film the poolroom atmosphere. Whether it's a couple of bums pitching quarters for their last two bucks, or a roadplayer that shows up ready to play for thousands. Film on the weekends, or maybe tournament nights for a month at each room, and I'm sure you can edit it down to a season's worth of one hour shows once a week. With the power of Hollywood just a stone's throw from on of the biggest action rooms around, you'd think someone would've tapped into that goldmine by now.
 
Reno,

I think you may have missed my point. I'm not saying here that the reason pool is not watched more is because of gambling per se. What I'm saying is, there is the feeling that the outcome of the match is predetermined. Therefore, why watch? If there was a good chance that Andre Agassi was going to stall in a tournament final against Pete Sampras because there was more money in it for him to lose, very few people would be watching.

Aside from that, you may be right about the rest of it. 9 ball is not the most exciting thing to watch, even with the time clock.
 
Keith Legros said:
Now that Charlie Williams has won a couple of tournaments I am wondering if he has "It"

By "It", I mean would his presence at any tournament automatically make it a prestigious event, thus drawing more spectators than normal.

Or to put it another way, if pool was like tennis and Charlie was playing center court would it sell out, be half full or just another match?

Do people really want to watch this guy play?

Players that I think would "sell out center court"

# 1 - Earl Strickland.

Also: Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Johnny Archer, Steve Davis, Ralph Souquet, Cory Deuel, Mika Immonen, Ching Shun Yang, Karen Corr, Alison Fisher, Jeanette Lee.

Also worth mentioning would be players like: Nick Varner, Alex Pagulayan, Buddy Hall, Nick Van Den Berg, Neils Feijen, Oliver Ortmann.

And Maybe's : Jeremy Jones, Shannon Daulton, Kim Davenport, George San Souci, Fabio Petroni, Fong Pang Chao.

Finally: Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich, Marcus Chamat, Grady Mathews, Mike Massey, John Horsfall.

Now, I have never seen Charlie in person, but I have hours upon hous of tapes from the World Championship and Mosconi Cup events.

I have watched these tapes over and over and over and over..etc.

The one player I cannot stand to watch is Charlie.

This does not mean I hate the guy or anything, I just cannot stand to watch him play.


Keith Legros
Click to expand...

i have seen charlie play on espn, the mosconi cup, and in person (playing pagulayan @ 10 ball getting a spot) and i haven't seen the boring slow play i have heard described here and other newsgroups many times. on espn (bca "open" vs. robles) he was on a shot clock so no chance for slow play. i think the shot clock in that case made him play even better (didn't over-think).

as far as the women go, i think fisher, and especially corr are quite boring from an entertainment perspective. vivian villareal, joanne mason-parker, and jeanette lee are much more entertaining to watch, even if they are not up to the corr/fisher standard. they play "fast and loose".

warren..
 
Keith Legros said:
Now that Charlie Williams has won a couple of tournaments I am wondering if he has "It"

By "It", I mean would his presence at any tournament automatically make it a prestigious event, thus drawing more spectators than normal.

Or to put it another way, if pool was like tennis and Charlie was playing center court would it sell out, be half full or just another match?

Do people really want to watch this guy play?

Players that I think would "sell out center court"

# 1 - Earl Strickland.

Also: Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Johnny Archer, Steve Davis, Ralph Souquet, Cory Deuel, Mika Immonen, Ching Shun Yang, Karen Corr, Alison Fisher, Jeanette Lee.

Also worth mentioning would be players like: Nick Varner, Alex Pagulayan, Buddy Hall, Nick Van Den Berg, Neils Feijen, Oliver Ortmann.

And Maybe's : Jeremy Jones, Shannon Daulton, Kim Davenport, George San Souci, Fabio Petroni, Fong Pang Chao.

Finally: Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich, Marcus Chamat, Grady Mathews, Mike Massey, John Horsfall.

Now, I have never seen Charlie in person, but I have hours upon hous of tapes from the World Championship and Mosconi Cup events.

I have watched these tapes over and over and over and over..etc.

The one player I cannot stand to watch is Charlie.

This does not mean I hate the guy or anything, I just cannot stand to watch him play.

He reminds me of "Geraldo"..........the T.V. Talk show guy.

Geraldo would have this GREAT BIG build up before each commercial and come back with nothing.

Charlie shoots that way.........he has this way of "winding" his cue like he really means business and makes it seems like it's the shot from hell that he is facing. He does this way to often.

It is very irritating for me anyways.

Anyway the players I like watching are the players that play at a nice steady pace, observe the table fairly qiuckly and have a nice smooth stroke.

So obviously Charlie is not on my list of players that I would go anywhere near out of my way to watch.

What are your thoughts?

Keith Legros
Click to expand...
I actually don't like watching Charlie play, him and a few snooker players, not that Charlie is boring to watch, just kinda irritating. It's not that he shoots fast that irritates me hey i like watching drago and salvas play. I just don't like the way he comes up to the table...looks kinda cocky or over confident.
I'll watch Earl play against a no-body anytimes just cause it's Earl or any of those players you listed.
 
I used to get a kick out of watching Nick Varner
play Earl when there was no time clock.
He would drive Strickland nuts.
 
Re: Re: Does Charlie have "IT"

Cardinal_Syn said:
I actually don't like watching Charlie play...I just don't like the way he comes up to the table...looks kinda cocky or over confident.
Click to expand...

Charlie Williams probably, like most pro players, puts his game face on when he is in competition. Some folks are annoyed by his table demeanor, i.e., walking around the table three or four times before shooting, stroking his cue stick up and down 10 times before executing the shot, the look on his face of disgust even though he pocketed a ball, and being a self-appointed president of a non-profit organization that is controversial at this time who receives a seed and a bye in all UPA-sanctioned events (when promoters do all the work and invest all the monies) doesn't help much either.

Older pool players who have been around for a while, even before Charlie Williams was here on this earth, find it difficult to have a younger pool player as the president of the UPA issuing mandatory requirements to them. I do believe that Charlie Williams has good intentions, but whoever is advising him should look at how it appears on the surface to others.

I have watched Charlie play in many events, and he usually sits alongside the table quietly, focused on the game, awaiting his next shot. All pool players have their own style, and I truly see nothing wrong with Charlie's. It may not be entertaining like Earl or Alex the Lion or Keith McCready, but Charlie's behavior on the table is very professional.

Jimmy Fusco was told recently by a professional pool player who works with ESPN that the reason you do not see older players on televised events like 7-Ball Challenges in his opinion the public wants to see younger players. It must be difficult to be a pool player who has been playing all of your life hear these words.

Again, as stated in previous threads, after viewing the WPC coverage, American TV should take heed and see how it is done in other countries where pool has a good image among its public.

ManlyShot
 
Keith Legros, Are you saying that if Earl played you then people would watch? Maybe so, but then Earl, Effren, Busta would draw a crowd no matter who they played. Not so about many of the others. Maybe Buddy, Archer, and Mika.

One evening I was in a pool hall where Nick Varner was playing Dan Lavoie and I sat there watching them. Although the place was full of people only myself and another person watched them play. The sad part of the whole thing was that I would say that about 90% of the people in the hall had absolutely no idea who Nick Varner was. The 8 people playing in the weekly tournament that night knew him of course but had no interest in watching him play. They would rather play their own game.

Over the last five years I have been able to watch a lot of the pros, and the almost pros play, and it really surprises me how few people really care to watch them. At least here in Central Florida. I suppose the interest just isn't there.

I like to watch them because I can appreciate how good they are and how hard it is to do what they do on the pool table. And I always learn from them. But lately I get bored when a top player is matched up against someone ranked really low. Of course every now and then some of the lower ranked players surprise you. Like the two 20 year olds who showed up in Orlando, or the guy who beat cory last week. But generally speaking matches like that are few and far between.

And when the UPA sent Bill Ferguson to Europe to represent them and the USA they just showed how stupid their organization is. Bill is just not up to pro level play. And his play there showed it. Why were other, and better players, passed up?

And if they had their way they would have banned Earl from going. How stupid is that? They just continually keep cutting off their nose to spite their face. I am beginning to think that they (the UPA) really are not trying to help pool but just trying to fatten their own pockets.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Over the last five years I have been able to watch a lot of the pros, and the almost pros play, and it really surprises me how few people really care to watch them...And if they had their way they would have banned Earl from going. How stupid is that? They just continually keep cutting off their nose to spite their face. I am beginning to think that they (the UPA) really are not trying to help pool but just trying to fatten their own pockets.
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BINGO, Jake. You hit the nail on the head.

Maybe the UPA could better serve the pool players it is trying to represent by attempting to solve the ever-increasing dilemma of poor tournament turnouts. Putting a stranglehold on tournament promoters by threatening non-participation of its members and presenting a union-versus-scab mentality to pool players who choose not to join UPA doesn't help the industry as a whole.

ManlyShot
 
When I saw Charlie walking about in Cardiff, he struck me as someone with so much burden on his shoulders. Unlike his "TV Face", his shoulders fell heavy and he had his head stooped down. Not a good body language for a young champion like him.

Being president of UPA is like being a playing coach in NBA. Geeez! Poor guy probably didn't know what he was getting into. Maybe he just doesn't know any better as a President. Electorate's fault.
 
Sputnik said:
When I saw Charlie walking about in Cardiff, he struck me as someone with so much burden on his shoulders...his shoulders fell heavy and he had his head stooped down...Being president of UPA is like being a playing coach in NBA.
Click to expand...

The UPA machine sounds like it has too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

I believe Charlie Williams, a professional pool player who is president of the UPA, has good intentions, and I hope after he steps down from this self-appointed position that he continues to enjoy his celebrity, which is well-deserved.

The one positive thing the UPA offers to pool players is the ranking points. For some pool players, this is a significant membership benefit if you are able to pay for your travel/hotel expenses to places like Thailand, if ranked high enough, and for others, ranking points don't mean a hill of beans. The track record of UPA seeding, which is supposed to be dependent on the ranking points, is flawed. How convenient it is for seeded UPA members to arrive 2 days after the players meeting, knowing they have a seed and a bye. It saves them considerable expenses, but it is not fair to the others who showed up for the players meeting on time and incurred additional hotel and per diem expenses.

Medical insurance, life insurance, legal advice, travel discounts, UPA credit cards with bonus points, just to name a few, are some things that could attract prospective members and actually help the UPA and pool players at the same time. Hopefully, the UPA will take a turn and focus its resources on these types of membership benefits.

ManlyShot
 
Does Charlie Have It

Hey Keith,

Interesting point about attendence. This past May, Classic Billiards here in Rochester posted a $3000 challenge match of one pocket and nine ball for "Busti" and "Santo". To say the least, no one came. Gate price $30. Maybe fifteen people. Days later, some of the people that did not show said they could watch them on TV for free. My retort was "did you see the kick shot that Busti went out on in the ninth game last month? No, ESPN skipped that point, not enough TV time" Enough said.

Two years ago, Joss Tour event finals, Charlie vrs Earl, 50 people plus. $10 gate.

This years Joss Tour event finals, Earl vrs Keith McCready, easily 75 people. $10 gate.

I detest Earl's attitute. But as I said in an earlier post, Earl is part of the show AND the show! He is a crowd draw. The only real male player that has a NAME! It is too bad people watch him as much as to see him go off as to see his great talent. Kind of like hockey with spectators cheering for blood.
 
Does Charlie Have It

Gremlin,

Yes, I am a UPA member. Although I strongly disagree with lots they do, I found NO ONE else even attempting to help the "pro" player. APA and BCA could hardly care that we exist. Many years ago, I joined the MPBA because I believed it also existed to promote the professional level game. I was wrong then and I may be wrong now. I spoke at length with other UPA members at the CCC. There are some great ideas being discussed. Manlyshot mentioned some of them in his post. If UPA fails through lack of support, how many more years will go by until someone else steps up to the plate and tries again? I'm willing to risk my $100 (I'm applying for food stamps after that one). Why aren't you? Everyone has good reasons for the UPA to fail. Few have good reasons for it to succeed. Incidently, most of the negative comments made about the UPA include either Charlie Williams by name or Dragon Productions. After January 1st, that will cease. As you kinow, Charlie will resign from the presidency. What will the excuses be then?

You have never attended a tournament at Classic Billiards here in Rochester. The room we have for tournament finals at most, holds 75 people. I should have made that part of my post. I was trying to give some dimension to Earl's personal drawing power. Percentagewise to the populations, the Master Billiards event should have drawn 3000 for the finals! Its all relative.

Regarding your earlier comments about OJT, how do you watch women's pool? Other than Karen and Allison, the rest of the field is, at best, women players doing their OJT. Once in a while, actually very infrequently now, one of the other ladies makes a splash (Ms Lee perhaps). Incidently, have you played on one of the tables the WPBA uses for their tournaments. I have. I'd love to see the field play on Diamond or Gabriel Pro tables. Talk about frustration.
 
Re Cardiac Kid

Quote,
Incidently, have you played on one of the tables the WPBA uses for their tournaments. I have. I'd love to see the field play on Diamond or Gabriel Pro tables. Talk about frustration


Do you mean they are easy?

Gabber
 
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