draw better with heavier cue ball?

fastone371 said:
The biggest difference I have noticed when drawing heavy and light cue balls is that it seems the light ball will hesitate in place just spinning before rolling backwards and the heavy ball seems to draw immediately after object ball contact. I suppose it could be due to cloth also but it always seems consistent with the heavy ball.
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I wonder if the weight is allowing the spin to kick in faster on slow spin draw - i.e. minimal draw. If you power draw it might spin a bit but with light draw it spins less and with the added weight of the heavier cue I wonder if the spin affect is more immediate due to the weight?

Just thinking out loud.
 
garczar said:
The lighter cueball both bounces back AND spins back. Heavier ball sits and does sort of a mini 'burnout' then backs up. The old 'big ball' actually goes forward a bit and then comes back. Sorta.
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On a full contact hit that kind of makes sense if the CB is heavier than the OB. I'm no scientist but here's my thought process - the CB has X amount of energy and when it contacts a ball of the same weight it transfers 100% of that energy to the OB (think perfect stop shot) but when that CB has more weight to it then the OB can't "accept" all the energy so the CB has some energy left and therefore continues forward ever so slightly before the draw takes affect.

Now break that down into what I was saying before about max spin vs min spin (slow spin draw I mentioned in post 21, I used different words here). With max spin the CB is going to spin for a split second before the draw takes affect, with minimum spin it won't spin as long before the friction allows the draw to take affect.

If I had a heavy ball I would test it but you can clearly see the different draw affects when hitting a ball off center. Hit it hard with lots of draw and it slides on the tangent line MUCH longer than hitting it soft with lots of draw (if you can learn that stuff you're less likely to scratch in side pockets ;)). Hit it soft with very little draw and the draw takes affect quicker but doesn't come back as far.

Again, not a scientist (and I haven't stayed at Holiday INN express in years!) and just thinking out loud?
 
garczar said:
The lighter cueball both bounces back AND spins back. Heavier ball sits and does sort of a mini 'burnout' then backs up. The old 'big ball' actually goes forward a bit and then comes back. Sorta.
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I've seen the lighter balls do the same burn out which makes me wonder if that's just due to the cloth or those specific CBs' surface.
 
This turned into a shit-sandwich. OP asked if a heavier cb draws easier. It doesn't. Gone..............
 
Chili Palmer said:
LOL, but some people don't just accept yes or no, they want to know why, I am one of those people ;)
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Simple test: weigh and shoot. We took a few cb's at the 'hall one day(SERIOUS boredom had set in) and low and behold the lightest cb(was approx 6grams lighter than a measel) was WAAAAAY easier to draw. By far the hardest to back-up was a bar-box 'mudball'. It was little heavier than a measel and has a funky feel to the surface. None of us could get much back-up with it. Lighter balls don't go forward much and start backing up very quickly.
 
How the CB draws is a function of the weight of both the OB & CB. Not just the CB. Simple physics. I’ll leave it at that
 
garczar said:
Simple test: weigh and shoot. We took a few cb's at the 'hall one day(SERIOUS boredom had set in) and low and behold the lightest cb(was approx 6grams lighter than a measel) was WAAAAAY easier to draw. By far the hardest to back-up was a bar-box 'mudball'. It was little heavier than a measel and has a funky feel to the surface. None of us could get much back-up with it. Lighter balls don't go forward much and start backing up very quickly.
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Being a person who has drawn the ball my entire life I definitely know the limitations of a mud ball.

I was playing in APA once and had to play another SL9 (whom I had only played once before but took him to the hill in 8B) at his home bar. Turns out 1 table has mudball and 1 doesn't. The "good" table was being used by our other teammates so he looks at me and says "Want to wait until they're done". Um, your home bar, you play with the mudball all the time and I hate the things (which is how we got to that part of the conversation) - sure, I'll wait for the good table ;) I think I beat him 75-48? Let's just say he was less pleased then he was when I took him to the hill in 8B :)
 
Chili Palmer said:
I wonder if the weight is allowing the spin to kick in faster on slow spin draw - i.e. minimal draw. If you power draw it might spin a bit but with light draw it spins less and with the added weight of the heavier cue I wonder if the spin affect is more immediate due to the weight?

Just thinking out loud.
Click to expand...
When an equal weighted CB makes straight-line contact with a equally weighted OB, the CB initially stops the instant after contact.
If the CB is heavier, the CB has net forward momentum (sliding forward).
If the OB is heavier, the CB has net backward momentum (sliding backwards).

Now, after straight-line contact (full), if the CB is rotating backwards it will accelerate backwards until the friction of the cloth consumes the backspin, conversely, if the CB is rotating forwards, it will accelerate forwards until the friction of the cloth consumes the forward spin. IN both cases, acceleration stops when the CB is rolling exactly as fast as the cloth is passing under the point of contact.

The pause between (full) contact and the has to do with the slickness of the CB and the slickness of the cloth.

Pure physics.
 
Fatboy said:
How the CB draws is a function of the weight of both the OB & CB. Not just the CB. Simple physics. I’ll leave it at that
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Are you a physicist? If so, I would be interested in hearing how the weight specifically affects the transfer of energy, I can handle it ;)

Is it as simple as this...

CB A = 6oz and OB A = 6oz - 100% transfer of energy on a perfect stop shot

CB B = 6.6oz and OB A = 6oz - OB A is 10% lighter and therefore can only take 90% of the energy so there's 10% left? Clearly friction would affect some of these things.

If the math can be broken down that easily then using that at the table is fairly simple as it would be no different than cutting a ball and using the angle to determine how much energy transfer there is going to be thus giving you an idea of how far the CB is going to travel after contact. Think no-rail spot shot, since the angle of attack is less than 90 degrees you transfer more energy to the OB and therefore the CB cannot travel as far, unless it's a mudball.
 
MitchAlsup said:
When an equal weighted CB makes straight-line contact with a equally weighted OB, the CB initially stops the instant after contact.
If the CB is heavier, the CB has net forward momentum (sliding forward).
If the OB is heavier, the CB has net backward momentum (sliding backwards).

Now, after straight-line contact (full), if the CB is rotating backwards it will accelerate backwards until the friction of the cloth consumes the backspin, conversely, if the CB is rotating forwards, it will accelerate forwards until the friction of the cloth consumes the forward spin. IN both cases, acceleration stops when the CB is rolling exactly as fast as the cloth is passing under the point of contact.

The pause between (full) contact and the has to do with the slickness of the CB and the slickness of the cloth.

Pure physics.
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I know it's physics, but I'm looking to find out HOW the % of weight difference affect the CB afterwards.
 
Chili Palmer said:
Are you a physicist? If so, I would be interested in hearing how the weight specifically affects the transfer of energy, I can handle it ;)

Is it as simple as this...

CB A = 6oz and OB A = 6oz - 100% transfer of energy on a perfect stop shot

CB B = 6.6oz and OB A = 6oz - OB A is 10% lighter and therefore can only take 90% of the energy so there's 10% left? Clearly friction would affect some of these things.

If the math can be broken down that easily then using that at the table is fairly simple as it would be no different than cutting a ball and using the angle to determine how much energy transfer there is going to be thus giving you an idea of how far the CB is going to travel after contact. Think no-rail spot shot, since the angle of attack is less than 90 degrees you transfer more energy to the OB and therefore the CB cannot travel as far, unless it's a mudball.
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A object in motion stays in motion until acted on by a outside force.

lol I’m not a physicist, I had 9 semesters of chemistry and 2 physics.

I’ll let dr Dave who is much more qualified than I am discuss this. I don’t have the energy or desire to go any deeper. Either you can draw your nugget or you can’t. 2 players same table, same constrictions. Equal game. Nuff about this. Not into theory-just want to gamble and snap off the cash, friction, weight, mass, density aside!

Cheers, it’s a great summer!!

Fatboy😀
 
Chili Palmer said:
I know it's physics, but I'm looking to find out HOW the % of weight difference affect the CB afterwards.
Click to expand...
That’s a great question. All jokes aside.

There’s so many variables it would be very difficult to calculate.

The differential of the weight/mass of the 2 balls in question assuming they are the same size isn’t a easy thing to figure out.

I’m pretty sure the answer is linear all other factors being equal, but to calculate and get a result would be waaaaay over my pay grade.

Another variable is the elasticity of the balls. Mud balls were dead compared to today’s balls. The composition of the balls has lots to do with how much a CB will draw. Get a $5 junk plastic CB and a good high end OB and see what I’m talking about. The plastic CB will give you a much different response than say a meseal CB. The endless red circle/blue circle CB discussions on here are a telling tail.

The best one can do is master the equipment he has to play on.
Best
Fatboy
 
Chili Palmer said:
Are you a physicist? If so, I would be interested in hearing how the weight specifically affects the transfer of energy, I can handle it ;)

Is it as simple as this...

CB A = 6oz and OB A = 6oz - 100% transfer of energy on a perfect stop shot
Click to expand...
In actuality, the energy transfer is closer to 97% than 100%. That other 3%-ish comes out in the form of sound (pop) and if you listen really carefully, the skidding sound of the CB sliding prior to contact, and the OB starting away sliding rather than rolling; and a bit is converted into heat at the point where the 2 balls make contact through inelastic collision mechanics.

Chili Palmer said:
CB B = 6.6oz and OB A = 6oz - OB A is 10% lighter and therefore can only take 90% of the energy so there's 10% left? Clearly friction would affect some of these things.
Click to expand...
If the CB is 10% heavier than OB, the OB will leave 97%*110% faster than the CB arrived,
and the CB will continue forward with 97%*(110%-100%) of its original velocity.

Chili Palmer said:
If the math can be broken down that easily then using that at the table is fairly simple as it would be no different than cutting a ball and using the angle to determine how much energy transfer there is going to be thus giving you an idea of how far the CB is going to travel after contact. Think no-rail spot shot, since the angle of attack is less than 90 degrees you transfer more energy to the OB and therefore the CB cannot travel as far, unless it's a mudball.
Click to expand...
Spin adds energy to the rolling ball that is significantly harder to draw out the math behind.
 
Chili Palmer said:
I wonder if the weight is allowing the spin to kick in faster on slow spin draw - i.e. minimal draw. If you power draw it might spin a bit but with light draw it spins less and with the added weight of the heavier cue I wonder if the spin affect is more immediate due to the weight?

Just thinking out loud.
Click to expand...
Thats what Im thinking because it always seemed odd to see. You shoot a shot, not with max draw or anything, just some draw and as soon as the cue ball hits the object it comes back towards you immediately. Besides my Aramith Tournament set cue ball and Centennial set cue ball I have about a half dozen red circles, they all have a slight hesitation after striking the object ball and then actually drawing, maybe those are the heavy balls, I didnt think they were, I thought it was the older magnetic balls that are usually heavy.
 
MitchAlsup said:
I only had 2 semesters in chemistry but 9 semesters in physics and 8 semesters in calculus.
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I never made it to calculus lol. That didn’t work out for me. Was too busy at the pool room to deal with that.

I learned how to draw my rock instead.

Maybe that was a mistake……

Enjoy your summer!

Fatboy😀
 
Fatboy said:
I never made it to calculus lol. That didn’t work out for me. Was too busy at the pool room to deal with that.
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How did you get 2 semesters of physics in without calculus ???

I mean physics is simply the mechanical interpretation of geometry and calculus.
 
fastone371 said:
Thats what Im thinking because it always seemed odd to see. You shoot a shot, not with max draw or anything, just some draw and as soon as the cue ball hits the object it comes back towards you immediately. Besides my Aramith Tournament set cue ball and Centennial set cue ball I have about a half dozen red circles, they all have a slight hesitation after striking the object ball and then actually drawing, maybe those are the heavy balls, I didnt think they were, I thought it was the older magnetic balls that are usually heavy.
Click to expand...
If the cloth is slippery the CB can sit and spin for a couple beats before it comes back after striking the OB. Same on a real dry table. On a dirty wet table that’s less likely to happen. Lots of factors in play here
 
MitchAlsup said:
How did you get 2 semesters of physics in without calculus ???

I mean physics is simply the mechanical interpretation of geometry and calculus.
Click to expand...
I had pretty basic/lame physics classes. Not upper division classes.

Algebra was enough math for the physics I took. I had more interest in chem and economics so that’s the direction I headed.

All total 3 years of school of which 2 I actually learned something the last year at Sac State I was at the pool room constantly gambling as I didn’t want a job and didn’t have any family $. I did work at Great American for 3 weeks for $4/hour, the only job I ever traded hours fir dollars. I was a prep cook, free food! Yay.

What’s interesting is when I was younger math was very difficult for me, as I’ve aged it seems easier to learn which is the opposite of most other things.

Back to the topic. I’m not a expert in physics but I know that there are many things involved with what we are discussing and I don’t have the education to properly calculate or express them in any format that would be for acceptable consumption by anyone. All I have is lots of years of experience and know my limitations.

best
Fatboy
 
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