Drawing a cue ball with a 'long shot'

[TimurA]

Hi,

I am a new member.I live in İstanbul,Turkey

I have been trying the learn 3c for nearly 1 year.I do not have pre-experience in either pool or so called 'small' carom games.

I would like to learn what happens to the cue ball when someone shoots a draw shot with a 'long shot'

what happens to the cue ball before the collısıon with the first object ball ?
and after the collision for a) high thicknesses b) thin hits ?

it seems to me for thick draw hits, long shooting is useless and counterproductive. but thinner hits are totally a different story ,which I have not been able to solve.

I know cue ball behaviour in draw for classical jab shots but not in case of long shots


Your help would be highly appreciated

Regards,

Timur
İstanbul,

 

[jimshovak]

If you mean that you are trying to draw the cueball when you are far away from the first object ball, then here is my opinion:

Yes, you can draw the ball, but the draw action will obviously be very limited because the cueball picks up follow as it rolls across the cloth. So, if you have an extremely powerful stroke, you can still draw the ball, but for most mortals, the amount of draw is limited.

If you make a thin hit with draw, the action depends on how long the cueball takes to hit a rail. If there is no rail nearby, then the cueball starts its draw action off of the ball and bends into a new path. However, if you are close to a rail, then the ball may not have enough time to get draw action off the ball. Instead it will draw off of the rail.

This is a common mistake players make: they want to draw off of the first object ball, but by hitting the cue ball thin, they may get to the first rail too quickly which makes the cueball draw off of the rail instead, usually giving you the exact opposite result you are looking for.

I don't know if this is what you wanted, but I hope it helps.

 

[TimurA]

If you mean that you are trying to draw the cueball when you are far away from the first object ball, then here is my opinion:

Yes, you can draw the ball, but the draw action will obviously be very limited because the cueball picks up follow as it rolls across the cloth. So, if you have an extremely powerful stroke, you can still draw the ball, but for most mortals, the amount of draw is limited.

If you make a thin hit with draw, the action depends on how long the cueball takes to hit a rail. If there is no rail nearby, then the cueball starts its draw action off of the ball and bends into a new path. However, if you are close to a rail, then the ball may not have enough time to get draw action off the ball. Instead it will draw off of the rail.

This is a common mistake players make: they want to draw off of the first object ball, but by hitting the cue ball thin, they may get to the first rail too quickly which makes the cueball draw off of the rail instead, usually giving you the exact opposite result you are looking for.

I don't know if this is what you wanted, but I hope it helps.

Thank you very much for your reply, Mr.Shovak.

Probably I am using the term 'long shot' incorrectly.When I said 'long shot' ,I did not mean a position ,in which a cue ball is far away from the first object ball so the shot is long but I used the term to describe ' classical 3c shot by which the shooter pushes the cue ball at the end of the followthrough instead of just hitting it'
I used the term jab shot to describe the latter.I know or I presume I know that a draw shot a hit shot not a push shot .Smooth actıon and full follow through is requıred for a draw hit but still a hit shot as described in the Cappelle's book or any other pool books İf I understood them correctly ; they do not say a pushing actıon ...

I had watched a match between Zanetti and Carlsen .The commentator -Jan Carl-said ' a draw hit(below center hit) with a long shot does not draw the cue ball ' and Ira lee said something like a draw with a long shot maxımeses the english.But neither the position nor some of my excursions on the table enlightened me very much .



Regards,

Timur

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Probably I am using the term 'long shot' incorrectly.When I said 'long shot' ,I did not mean a position ,in which a cue ball is far away from the first object ball so the shot is long but I used the term to describe ' classical 3c shot by which the shooter pushes the cue ball at the end of the followthrough instead of just hitting it' ...

A very surprising result from high-speed videos is that it makes very little difference what the shooter thinks he is doing with a long stroke or a jab -- in either case the tip is on the ball for only about 1/1000 second and over a distance of 1-5 millimeters. What really makes a difference in the draw you get on the cue ball is how far below center you hit it and how fast the stick is moving.

Sometimes people claim that special strokes are needed in particular situations, but they never are able to come up with any specific example that can't be played as well or better with a very standard stroke. (Of course an obvious exception is when the object ball is very close to the cue ball and an abbreviated stroke is needed to prevent a foul. I'm not talking about such special close-ball situations.)

The main point here for learning the game is that you can concentrate on simplifying your mechanics and not lose any range of shots. Simpler is better for this.

 

[TimurA]

sometimes people claim that special strokes are needed in particular situations, but they never are able to come up with any specific example that can't be played as well or better with a very standard stroke. (Of course an obvious exception is when the object ball is very close to the cue ball and an abbreviated stroke is needed to prevent a foul. I'm not talking about such special close-ball situations.)



Mr Jewett,

I had watched an educational video from Semih Saygıner about Long Shots.He said that if you cannot hit a long shot,you cannot play 3c and showed an example how a long shot and jab shot differs.He set up a classic simple short angle,he first chose a jab shot,a very standart hit shot and a centerball hit .He said that the shot is very sensitive to thickness with a jab shot ;only a very small thickness range is applicable to make the point then he chose the long shot;he pushed the cueball and he chose even a larger thickness but made the point .He said that with a long shot ,the position is now easier(If I translate directly from Turkish exactly what he says:The position gets relaxed) ,becouse thickness sensitivity is diminished considerably with a long shot for espacially centerball hits,he said.I thought the reason why he said that 'you cannot play 3c without long shot' is that if you only play jab shots,one is doomed to find everytime a very small range of thickness to score the point and that is difficult even for a very talented .

regards,

Timur

 

[Bob Jewett]

... he pushed the cueball and he chose even a larger thickness but made the point ...

When you say he "pushed" the cue ball, I assume you mean that he used a longer stroke. Is that correct? Usually at billiards, a "push" shot is a sort of foul.

Beyond that, I think there are lots of reasons to avoid the short stroke of a "jab" shot, including accuracy and consistency and even ease of play. But I still am not convinced by your example. We still lack a specific shot that requires a particular kind of stroke to be performed.

 

[TimurA]

When you say he "pushed" the cue ball, I assume you mean that he used a longer stroke. Is that correct? Usually at billiards, a "push" shot is a sort of foul.

Beyond that, I think there are lots of reasons to avoid the short stroke of a "jab" shot, including accuracy and consistency and even ease of play. But I still am not convinced by your example. We still lack a specific shot that requires a particular kind of stroke to be performed.

Yes,I meant 'Long shot'

here is the video http://www.uzmantv.com/bilardoda-surme-vurus-nasil-yapilir

it is in Turkish .

firstly, he shows a hit shot,then he shows long shots with different speeds and emphazises the importance of 'long shot' especially for centerball hits.He mentions long shots decreases the thickness sensitivity for centerball hits.

then he shows at last a short angle example.

Timur

 

[billiardshot]

TimurA, would be outstanding if we could get these instruction videos of Sayigner translated into English!
Bob Watson

 

[TimurA]

TimurA, would be outstanding if we could get these instruction videos of Sayigner translated into English!
Bob Watson

the content of the videos are not very rich .Only introductions to some basic concepts but I will try to translate and post here if I come accross some interesting information there..

 

[Bob Jewett]

... firstly, he shows a hit shot,then he shows long shots with different speeds and emphazises the importance of 'long shot' especially for centerball hits.He mentions long shots decreases the thickness sensitivity for centerball hits.

then he shows at last a short angle example. ...

Well, OK, but the problem for me, as an engineer, is to understand the underlying mechanism. A ball played without masse (or jumping) in a particular direction can be fully described by three numbers as it leaves the cue tip: its follow, its side spin and its speed. There is no other quality that the ball can have(*). The only way you can change what the cue ball does after it hits the object ball by starting it with a different amount of side, follow or speed -- by "preparing" the cue ball differently.

You get more side by hitting farther to the side, even with a jab stroke. You get more follow by hitting higher, even with a jab stroke. So, you can prepare the cue ball in the same way with either kind of stroke -- jab or long -- for a wide range of shots. Of course, if a player hits lower when jabbing, then they won't get as much follow on the cue ball, but that's a matter of training not to change the location of the hit on such shots.

Also, as far as anyone has ever been able to demonstrate, the amount of side spin or follow relative to the stick speed is only determined by how far from center you strike the cue ball, and this is not affected by the length of the follow-through.

(*) When I say that there is no other quality that the cue ball can have, this is according to the physicists. If you can show them that there is some other quality present, such as "followness" or "strokeness" that can be demonstrated or measured, they will be very surprised and will give you lots of money.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Yes,I meant 'Long shot' ....

I think there is still a small translation problem. In English, "long shot" normally means that object ball is a very long distance from the cue ball. It has nothing to due with the motion of the arm or the cue stick. An example: "He keeps leaving me long shots, with my cue ball at one end of the table and the other two balls at the other end." (In pool, it could also mean that the object ball has a long way to go to the pocket.)

For stroke, you might say that a player has a lot of follow-through, or that he has a long, flowing stroke, or that he goes well through the ball. The opposite would be a "punch" or "jab" or short stroke.

 

[jimshovak]

I was taught the difference between a "long shot" which I call a follow-through stroke and a short, punch or jab stroke. I see a tremendous difference in the way the cueball reacts with each stroke. However, I understand Bob's opinion about physics. It is possible that while using the follow-through stroke that subconsciously I am using a different speed and that is what actually makes the difference. I really don't know the answer, but I know for sure that the different strokes in my game make a huge difference, so I will continue to use them. Whatever works, do it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... It is possible that while using the follow-through stroke that subconsciously I am using a different speed and that is what actually makes the difference. ...

My suspicion is that effects like this are behind the very wide-spread belief in special strokes. If you think "jab", you prepare for a certain hit on the cue ball -- perhaps closer to center than you usually use. If you think "long draw," you may subconsciously drop your elbow later on the stroke so you hit lower and get more draw. If that's so, I think there is nothing wrong with preparing yourself for particular kinds of shots except for the general, philosophical notion of keeping things simple. Briefly the simple approach is: choose your line, choose your spot on the cue ball, put your stick at that spot, and come straight back and straight through at the needed speed.