Efren Reyes' stroke...

Everyone does the "Up and down wiggly thing", unless your forearm changes length throughout the stroke. Get yourself a mirror or video camera and use a nice long bridge. Can't and shouldn't be avoided.

Fluidity my friend, and Efren has it by the truckload.
 
Uh, no...not everyone moves their elbow up and down during the warm up strokes. Look at Buddy Hall, Gabe Owen, Marlon Manolo, and Ralf Souquet, just to name a few top players with a pendulum stroke.

While no one can argue with the effectiveness of Efren's or Bustamante's stroke, I would shudder to see that pump handle stroke being taught to a beginner.
 
As long as you hit the white where you want to and the cue goes through straight, the only thing it will affect is your consistancy. But that is solved by practising a lot. Still there is a lot to be said for getting the basics correct.
 
There is a reason most Filipinos stroke like that is because they play on basically carpet instead of fast cloth. That's why they all shoot so good, and can do things with the cueball others can't do. When they come here and play on brand new simonis, it's alot easier to play on.
 
VIProfessor said:
Uh, no...not everyone moves their elbow up and down during the warm up strokes. Look at Buddy Hall, Gabe Owen, Marlon Manolo, and Ralf Souquet, just to name a few top players with a pendulum stroke.

While no one can argue with the effectiveness of Efren's or Bustamante's stroke, I would shudder to see that pump handle stroke being taught to a beginner.
Click to expand...

It's all about timing, isn't it? Effren has that stroke grooved, no doubt about that. The problem is obtaining consistency, of course. Actually, I like the pump stroke, feels more satisfying to me, even if it's not always the right stroke, of course.

Want to see a real pump stroke? Check out Mike Davis's stroke in this final rack against Mika at the Mosconi Cup 2006. BTW, Mike wins... Mike shoots twice in this short clip, ole pumpin' Mike at his best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRxY8xKAV7w
 
I've watched that same video many times. Yes, there are some elements of Efren's stroke that are unpleasing to the purist's eye...but there is so argument that there is some much more that IS right.

In honor of that video, I took some video of Efren (and others) at the 2007 DCC. Enjoy.

Efren:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDoGDojBzRM

Ralf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwHgXpxQqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSy85Chc3Q

Corey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGs5cF9oE1A
 
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mosconiac said:
I've watched that same video many times. Yes, there are some elements of Efren's stroke that are unpleasing to the purist's eye...but there is so argument that there is some much more that IS right.

In honor of that video, I took some video of Efren (and others) at the 2007 DCC. Enjoy.

Efren:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDoGDojBzRM

Ralf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwHgXpxQqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSy85Chc3Q

Corey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGs5cF9oE1A
Click to expand...

Great videos :)

But I am by no means a purist... I'm hardly good enough to be considered a player :p

It was just the first time I found the slow-mo analysis of Reyes and thought it would be interesting for everyone to see in slow-action like that :)
 
VIProfessor said:
Uh, no...not everyone moves their elbow up and down during the warm up strokes. Look at Buddy Hall, Gabe Owen, Marlon Manolo, and Ralf Souquet, just to name a few top players with a pendulum stroke.

While no one can argue with the effectiveness of Efren's or Bustamante's stroke, I would shudder to see that pump handle stroke being taught to a beginner.
Click to expand...
You're joking?. Efren's elbow is barely moving and if you slow-mo all the players you reference above, I'd bet their elbow have a slight movement as well. Plain and simple, trying to stop little movements like that is counter productive. Efren is extremely relaxed and his arm is moving in a fluid way.

I thought the Op was referring to the "S" movement of the cue more than the elbow movement anyway.
 
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Klopek said:
You're joking?. Efren's elbow is barely moving and if you slow-mo all the players you reference above, I'd bet their elbow have a slight movement as well. Plain and simple, trying to stop little movements like that is counter productive. Efren is extremely relaxed and his arm is moving in a fluid way.

I thought the Op was referring to the "S" movement of the cue more than the elbow movement anyway.
Click to expand...
I'm with you. I think it's obvious that Efren is not trying to be completely still, since he doesn't pause before his final stroke, but swings into it from the previous practice stroke. No one would teach you to throw a ball without moving your elbow and shoulder - in pool you throw the stick (if you play like Santos). What's the difference?

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
I'm with you. I think it's obvious that Efren is not trying to be completely still, since he doesn't pause before his final stroke, but swings into it from the previous practice stroke. No one would teach you to throw a ball without moving your elbow and shoulder - in pool you throw the stick (if you play like Santos). What's the difference?

unknownpro
Click to expand...

Check out Bob Jewett's article on the pendulum stroke (pdf)

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf
 
After a million years playing I personally have come to find none of it matters BEFORE you hit the cueball.....it's the FINAL move through the ball that is gold. I personally look like I'm trying to find water in a dried up well pump before I hit the ball, but it works for me.

If you can have great champions from snooker style to filipino style to everyone in between, I feel it's a personal preference thing. I liken it to putting in golf, you have the new school perfection strokes, the old school "chichi" putters, long, short, medium, left hand high or low.....who cares? as long as the ball goes in....

I guess what works for me might not fit your game, thats what makes it fun IMO

Gerry
 
Klopek said:
You're joking?. Efren's elbow is barely moving and if you slow-mo all the players you reference above, I'd bet their elbow have a slight movement as well. Plain and simple, trying to stop little movements like that is counter productive. Efren is extremely relaxed and his arm is moving in a fluid way.

I thought the Op was referring to the "S" movement of the cue more than the elbow movement anyway.
Click to expand...

Efren jiggles that baby all the way through his final stroke... check out the shot of his bridge hand in slow-mo... he has movement all the way through his follow-through.

And no, this post wasn't to critique his stroke... I said "I guess after that much practice you just say screw it and do what comes natural."
 
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