Elbow Orientation

[BeiberLvr]

I've worked on my stance, my alignment, my dominant eye/vision center. Yet I still have the same issue of inadvertently putting right hand spin on the ball when I think I'm hitting center.

Well after some recent video review I found the cause of the problem. I was aiming at center ball correctly, but my elbow was angled to the left. This was causing the tip to move to the right during the forward swing.

By straightening out the elbow, it immediately fixed the issue.

Which now leads me to my question. Is there something I can change in my stance so that my elbow isn't at an angle, or do I just need to keep making a conscious effort until it becomes automatic?

 

[ENGLISH!]

It may be how you're connected to the cue as that can affect the wrist which can affect the line of the elbow.

I'd bet Fran will have a good answer.

Best 2 You & Good Luck finding YOUR solution.

 

[Chrippa]

I've worked on my stance, my alignment, my dominant eye/vision center. Yet I still have the same issue of inadvertently putting right hand spin on the ball when I think I'm hitting center.

Well after some recent video review I found the cause of the problem. I was aiming at center ball correctly, but my elbow was angled to the left. This was causing the tip to move to the right during the forward swing.

By straightening out the elbow, it immediately fixed the issue.

Which now leads me to my question. Is there something I can change in my stance so that my elbow isn't at an angle, or do I just need to keep making a conscious effort until it becomes automatic?

Nice to hear that you find the solution . When we have the "picture" of how it works best in us we will strive to achieve that automatic imo. Visualisation is a great training imo.

I can have the same problem sometimes and I can "draw a line" to my sour back and especially when the pain is up in the neck and shoulders. I do yoga a lot for taking care of that.

You will most likely also have some things that will "drag" your attention from the posture that you want, stay alert and look at those things and you will have a easier path to correct yourself imo.

Regards

Christian

 

[Pidge]

It is nothing to do with anything other that the elbow. You can change your alignment or what ever but at the end of the day if your elbow is used to its position that's how it will naturally fall.

One thing you can do every shot is once down, or whilst getting down, try to raise the elbow as high as you possibly can. This will get the elbow on line and the forearm hanging straight down. It may feel like you are raising it up huge amounts but you actually aren't. Maybe an inch or so higher than normal. Practice playing doing this and the elbow should become used to its new position and become the norm. Also make a note of where this new position contacts the chest and look for this feeling every time.

 

[Pidge]

Duplicate post..

 

[FranCrimi]

I've worked on my stance, my alignment, my dominant eye/vision center. Yet I still have the same issue of inadvertently putting right hand spin on the ball when I think I'm hitting center.

Well after some recent video review I found the cause of the problem. I was aiming at center ball correctly, but my elbow was angled to the left. This was causing the tip to move to the right during the forward swing.

By straightening out the elbow, it immediately fixed the issue.

Which now leads me to my question. Is there something I can change in my stance so that my elbow isn't at an angle, or do I just need to keep making a conscious effort until it becomes automatic?

I'm sure Pidge means well, but he's not helping you determine your problem.

First you need to do some troubleshooting to eliminate possible variables:

If you properly lined up for your shot with a straight back arm, and then you angled it under your torso when you got down, you should find that you are missing most of your shots. If that is the case, then your feet are properly planted and the problem is with your arm.

If you're not missing most of your shots, but pocketing most of them with right side spin, your stance is probably still partially accommodating the bent arm.

Another issue to consider is how much you are angling your arm. A little? A lot?

That's why this is so complicated. I work with a lot of players with this issue. The fix takes time with a lot of little tweaks along the way.

Always double-check your stance. Players with your issue tend set up their back foot to the right of the line of the shot (for right-handed players), and it creeps back to that position as time goes by after the correction is made.

Set up a shot, plant your feet and get down over the shot. Then stand back up (but don't move your feet) and place a piece of chalk behind the heel of your back foot. Then step away and look at the chalk relative to the line of the shot. I have found this simple method to be effective in checking your back foot placement. Cameras are not always the best method to check this. You can take your cue stick and hold it over the line from the chalk to the cue ball. Take a look at the line and compare it to the line of the shot. Do the stance check with several different shots and angles.

Once you eliminate the stance variable, then you can move on to your arm.

Make sure the knuckles of your grip hand are situated along the side of your cue, and not under it. Keep them in the same position throughout your strokes. Check them at address and after your follow-through.

This should help get you started in correcting the issue.

 

[Pidge]

From what I've seen of beebs play he has very little issues with his initial set up. So all I can say is the issue comes from years of having the elbow off line. He gets into the alignment textbook as far as I've seen. The most common causes of why the elbow tucks into the torso for a reverse chicken wing are not getting the grip on the line of aim straight away as you step in, cutting across the line of aim with the eyes as you get into the address position and too much rotation of the waist and shoulders. The last is the most common I've seen with people learning the squarer snooker type stance which I believe, I mean beleib beebs does. Like I said in my previous post, try getting the elbow nice and high and it will completely alter the elbows alignment as you get down. Make sire the grip stays on the line of aim at all times aswel as the vision centre and you're onto a winner.

 

[tonythetiger583]

If your plant your heel on the shot line, maybe try planting your toes on the shot line, or some variation of this. You might need that little bit extra room to keep from cueing across your body. I also have a problem with my elbow being angled awkwardly. I would try and pin it in place, but it would be a conscious effort and a strain on my body.

I personally found that if I got lower (and I already try to shoot low), as well as focused on keeping a straight bridge arm, my elbow seemed to correct itself. My elbow usually gets out of line when I try to chicken-wing my bridge arm.

But I'm no instructor, so I could be totally wrong.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Having your elbow over your grip hand is a good move, but it's only one variable - another is having both elbow and grip hand the right distance from your body so the cue/stroke aligns most naturally with your line of sight. Yet another is having your head turned the right amount to see properly on that line.

I wouldn't advise trying to change all these things at once - just be aware while you're tweaking things that they work together.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Just a thought for the chicken wingers, the players with the elbow sticking out away from their body. Maybe the problem isn't in your elbow. Maybe your hand is trying to get closer to your hip. Your alignment may be too far left for a right hander.

Try moving your hand and body toward your elbow instead of bringing your elbow closer to your body. Your hand wants to be next to your hip, but the elbow is behind the shot line. Move to the right and get under your elbow.

Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

Just a thought for the chicken wingers, the players with the elbow sticking out away from their body. Maybe the problem isn't in your elbow. Maybe your hand is trying to get closer to your hip. Your alignment may be too far left for a right hander.

Try moving your hand and body toward your elbow instead of bringing your elbow closer to your body. Your hand wants to be next to your hip, but the elbow is behind the shot line. Move to the right and get under your elbow.

Best,
Mike

I don't think this was directed at me, but just in case. My problem was having the elbow too close to my body.

Pidge's suggestion of getting the elbow higher was a good fix as I did have it lower which may have been causing it to angle inwards.

I also like Fran's idea of putting a piece of chalk behind my back foot just to ensure that it is on the shot line. I'll have to try that out next time I practice.

 

[Mikjary]

I don't think this was directed at me, but just in case. My problem was having the elbow too close to my body.

Pidge's suggestion of getting the elbow higher was a good fix as I did have it lower which may have been causing it to angle inwards.

I also like Fran's idea of putting a piece of chalk behind my back foot just to ensure that it is on the shot line. I'll have to try that out next time I practice.

No, sorry about the mini hijack. I threw it in here because it was kind of in the same train of thought.

I can add something along the line of what Fran said to do with the chalk. If I'm checking my alignment and stance, I put a piece of chalk in my back hand and get down on the shot. I release the chalk and see where it hits as I address the cue ball. If it lands in a different spot every time, my rear foot placement is not correct.

I'm right eye dominant and usually have the chalk fall between my instep and ball of my foot. If it falls toward my heel, my head is too far to the right and my left eye I trying to do too much aiming.

I've noticed a lot of top players have an elbow angled slightly inward. More than angled out. Just sayin'.

Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

I've noticed a lot of top players have an elbow angled slightly inward. More than angled out. Just sayin'.

Best,
Mike

Orcullo comes to mind. My goal, though, is to just have it straight behind my head.

If there's one player I might say my stance is close to, it would be Chris Melling. To me, he has more of a side on snooker stance.

 

[Mikjary]

Orcullo comes to mind. My goal, though, is to just have it straight behind my head.

If there's one player I might say my stance is close to, it would be Chris Melling. To me, he has more of a side on snooker stance.

Efren, too. One thing I noticed over the years about players that tuck their elbow is that they never curl their wrist inward as a flaw in the stroke. The grip may have something to do with that.

Orcullo and Melling would definitely be two players to emulate. Their games are solid mechanically and mentally. A player couldn't go wrong picking up a few of their techniques.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've not too long ago gone through the same thing.

IMO:

What Fran said & what Mike said go together. (& Tony too)

I've always been more square, like a snooker stance but without the locked knee. My right foot has been to the right of the line & I had no problem with that. I had the sense of what CJ says of the cue sort of coming out from the center of my chest (even though it obviously is not).

But on certain shots where I've had to raise my arm & elbow I would miss in the same direction. I found that when I had to raise my arm/elbow I needed to also rotate my stance a bit clockwise to get more room for the stroke.

But when inadvertently putting that bit of right on the ball for a normal shot I've found it to be a rotation of the hand/wrist counter clockwise that made the elbow tuck & the tip go right. If I rotated the hand/wrist clockwise the elbow came on line & the stroke stayed straight. But... over time it went back. I think the reason was because the stroke wanted to go left because I did not make the associated body stance adjustment to go with it & the going right was a slight over 'correction'.

So... the hand wrist was being influenced by my stance being too square for an old guy with a bad back. In other words my body had changed probably after rupturing the L5S1 disc in my lower back.

So... the real fix was sort of like what Fran & Mike have said. It was bringing my hand in which brought the elbow out but then turning the whole new mechanism clockwise which brought my right back foot more onto the shot line.

Or...the other way to think of it would be to turn the stance clockwise which would bring the foot, shoulder, elbow, & hand online. which I believe is what Pidge said would be a good start & if one raises the arm/elbow, as I did for those certain shots, that requires that the body should turn clockwise to accommodate that.

The pool stance & stroke can be very much like a golf stance & swing. Or...maybe the human body is just the way it is & needs to be in proper alignment from toe to head to work properly for the course of endeavor.

I hope you, Jon, & everyone else with a similar issue finds their solution. In golf the fix is rarely if ever just changing one thing. I think the pool stroke may be similar in that regard.

Best,
Rick

PS I sincerely hope I did not confuse anyone. If so, please disregard the whole thing. It's like Fran said, this can be complicated & one should be careful. When I was going through this I wish we, Fran & I were not the whole vertical country apart as I would have certainly have liked her to guide me through it & she sort of did as best She could without being in person & hands on so to speak.

 

[SmoothStroke]

You may or may not add this to what others have said.

"Lock Your Shoulder"

If your elbow and swing arm are in a bad place a locked shoulder will let you know.

I lock my chin and shoulder on every stroke.
It's not a heavy pressure; it's more like locking a door. If a door is off the hinge it won't lock properly. You have to reset it on the hinge so it's aligned properly.

Tilt your head to the side and lock your chin, then set your head straight and lock your chin, I think you will feel the difference, apply the same feel to your swing arm and lock the shoulder.

A locked shoulder also aids in keeping your center and a straight delivery.

Sincerely: SS

 

[ENGLISH!]

You may or may not add this to what others have said.

"Lock Your Shoulder"

If your elbow and swing arm are in a bad place a locked shoulder will let you know.

I lock my chin and shoulder on every stroke.
It's not a heavy pressure; it's more like locking a door. If a door is off the hinge it won't lock properly. You have to reset it on the hinge so it's aligned properly.

Tilt your head to the side and lock your chin, then set your head straight and lock your chin, I think you will feel the difference, apply the same feel to your swing arm and lock the shoulder.

A locked shoulder also aids in keeping your center and a straight delivery.

Sincerely: SS

Good Morning Michael,

Can you relay a method to 'lock' the shoulder? I basically use a Piston J stroke & I feel that on certain 'power' shots I put my shoulder into the shot a bit too much. By that I mean that I sort of lead with the shoulder sort of like a shaft lean in golf.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[Pidge]

Rick, I want to address where you mentioned me in your previous post without quoting several paragraphs as I don't know how to edit just the information I want to address. Computer noob :-(

I never mentioned opening up the stance, however I think that is definitely a viable way to help get things aligned. But, and its a big but, Jon is comfortable and familiar with his snooker-type stance and I think changing the entire stance to get the elbow on line is asking too much for what is a simple fix. I had the same issue as Jon about 5 years ago when I switched from a 45 degree stance angle to a 90 degree stance angle relative to the line of aim. I know this isn't what stance Jon uses, but it still has the same fix.

I found it imperative that I get the grip onto the line of aim as soon as I found my line. Then I would hold the cue across my waist with the bridge hand. Whilst keeping the grip on the line of aim I would then focus on getting the bridge onto the line of aim a good 12" above the bed of the table. If you do this, aswel as lock your vision centre onto the line of aim and keep it locked in into the address position the elbow naturally falls onto the line of aim also. Then its a matter of feeling how the address position feels, such as in chest and how and where the cue contacts the chest. How it feels in the shoulder, how it feels and how you are bent/twisted at the hips and waist. Once you remember how it all feels then you start looking for these feelings when playing and instantly notice that something doesn't feel right. For me, it took a month or two of 8 hours practice a day 4 or 5 days a week to get it to become natural. Others it will take longer or shorter. Moral of the story is there is no quick fix for this but you must start by consciously getting the elbow aligned and practice, practice and more practice until the elbow falls into the wanted position naturally.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, I want to address where you mentioned me in your previous post without quoting several paragraphs as I don't know how to edit just the information I want to address. Computer noob :-(

I never mentioned opening up the stance, however I think that is definitely a viable way to help get things aligned. But, and its a big but, Jon is comfortable and familiar with his snooker-type stance and I think changing the entire stance to get the elbow on line is asking too much for what is a simple fix. I had the same issue as Jon about 5 years ago when I switched from a 45 degree stance angle to a 90 degree stance angle relative to the line of aim. I know this isn't what stance Jon uses, but it still has the same fix.

I found it imperative that I get the grip onto the line of aim as soon as I found my line. Then I would hold the cue across my waist with the bridge hand. Whilst keeping the grip on the line of aim I would then focus on getting the bridge onto the line of aim a good 12" above the bed of the table. If you do this, aswel as lock your vision centre onto the line of aim and keep it locked in into the address position the elbow naturally falls onto the line of aim also. Then its a matter of feeling how the address position feels, such as in chest and how and where the cue contacts the chest. How it feels in the shoulder, how it feels and how you are bent/twisted at the hips and waist. Once you remember how it all feels then you start looking for these feelings when playing and instantly notice that something doesn't feel right. For me, it took a month or two of 8 hours practice a day 4 or 5 days a week to get it to become natural. Others it will take longer or shorter. Moral of the story is there is no quick fix for this but you must start by consciously getting the elbow aligned and practice, practice and more practice until the elbow falls into the wanted position naturally.

Hi Pidge,

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I never advised to open the stance either. I relayed that I had a very similar issue as Jon not too long ago & I had to rotate my whole stance a slight bit clockwise. To me, that is closing my stance. Maybe that's a golf thing but that is why I don't like using the terms open & close very much as it can mean different things to different individuals.

I don't know if any of us have studied the details of Jon's situation to offer him any definitive advice.

Naturally we all want to get to a point where the cue is moving 'on line'.

I was trying to lay out how different 'parts' can go off & one might think that that one part is the issue when it really is another part that is the root cause. I was not doing that just for Jon, but for anyone reading too.

My issue was similar to Jon's but your elbow raising solution is what was causing me to mis in one direction for certain shots when I raised the elbow & arm. The raising of the elbow required me to have an associated clockwise rotation of my stance.

As I said, in golf it is rarely a one piece fix & I think the pool stroke is similar.

Like Fran said this can be complex & I think one should be careful.

I was trying to show that, in general for Jon & others. My quick fix worked & it was all good...for a while. It took finding the root cause for it to be more permanent.

Playing other sports sometimes requires making adaptations quickly. I don't know about you & others but I am capable of doing that as my mind is not cluttered with stroke thoughts. I can take one new thought to the table & play with it. If it works, I can stick with it. If not, I can drop it & revert back or maybe just tweak it a bit if it's not two totally separate operations that requires two or more thoughts.

I hope this resolves any issue you may have had.

Best 2 You...& All,
Rick

 

[Pidge]

I used the word opening, when I meant closing in reference to the stance. My reference to you was meant in a good advice kinda way.