Elevating cue butt for long draw

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Hogman

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On the last BcN broadcast (deuel vs. luat) they had a short instruction section featuring Buddy Hall executing a few different position shots. One of these was a table-length draw without hitting a cushion, a shot that I have been having trouble with for some time. I noticed that Hall had elevated his cue slightly on the shot, maybe 2 or 3 inches. I had been doing long draw shots by keeping my cue almost perfectly level, hitting the ball very low, almost hitting the cloth at the same time, and following through 6 or 7 inches. I get great draw this way at close distances, but when drawing from a table length away I could not seem to keep the cue ball spinning backwards.


When I tried elevating the cue slightly and hitting a point a bit higher on the cue ball, and with a shorter follow-through, I got much better long distance draw. The cueball feels like it rebounds off of the object ball and then the draw catches, bringing it back. The only problem was that I tended to miscue a bit more, but then again I am not used to using this kind of stroke. I then noticed in a few accu-stat matches that for power draws the players appear to be elevating the cue slightly. It feels like I have found the key to this shot, but on the other hand I have been told to keep the cue level on draw shots. So is the correct way to shoot a table length draw with a slightly elevated cue, or am I traveling down the wrong road?
 
I've seen Duel which i though was almost an impossible shot until he did it in the Mosconi Cup against Van Den Berg. The Cue-Ball was almost touching the rail and the object ball was against the rail past the side pocket. He jacked up got the ball in drew back and had possition. Amazing.
 
What Buddy is doing by elevating the cue is basically a reverse masse shot. He hits the cue ball about dead center with the cue raised slightly, the cue ball travels slightly above the cloth until it hits the object ball, then it does dig into the cloth straight down then rockets in reverse. This is a last resort shot that nobody wants to shoot unless no safety is available or the object ball is fairly close to the pocket. I have played against Buddy several times in practice (we hit some this past Sat. in Melbourne,FL) and in tournament play. He is a percentage shot player that doesn't take many chances and also one of the best 9-ball players in history.

Hit'em Straight :)
 
I have seen many styles of stroke, some downright goofy, but they can be made to work, just by the fact that they have been doin it that way forever.
i think that by following the unwritten basics like a level stroke, keeping the cue on your hand, long follow through, keeping your head down, swing arm at a right angle, not dropping the shoulder, etc etc.
you will be more consistent by keeping the stroke simple.
There really is no "correct" way to stroke and you may be able to achieve a better outcome on some shots by using a different stroke, but you have to ask yourself if you will be able to repeat that stroke time and time again and under pressure.
 
Cardinal_Syn said:
I've seen Duel which i though was almost an impossible shot until he did it in the Mosconi Cup against Van Den Berg. The Cue-Ball was almost touching the rail and the object ball was against the rail past the side pocket. He jacked up got the ball in drew back and had possition. Amazing.
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I happened to see that shot also, it was SIMPLY AMAZING!! Probably one of the best shots I have ever seen.
 
the shot...

i just so happened to see that shot also... it was probably the best shot ive ever seen because not only was it a heck of a shot regardless of pressure but the amount of pressure he had on him and he still fired it in and got perfect on the 3 ball. it was crazy... i wish i had a tape of it.
 
Cory's shot in the Mosconi was simply amazing.

I luckily taped all of the matches, and if I am not breaking any copyrights, I could try and get that shot onto my computer, somehow!
 
I think your answer is that type of shot is basically a jump shot, a level cue follow thru w/o jumping would have too much resistance over a 100 inch approx. roll to maintain a large amount of back spin
 
Cory's shot was the most mind bogglling I have seen. After contact the cue ball seemed to pause and then began locomotiving back for great shape! When he jacked up I thought "no way" after the shot I said "no way".
 
Nick went on to beat Cory though. The sad thing is that when he got back from the Mosconi Cup everyone gathered around him to ask about the shot that Cory made - up to this day even :p. It was an incredible shot.
 
Cardinal_Syn said:
I've seen Duel which i though was almost an impossible shot until he did it in the Mosconi Cup against Van Den Berg. The Cue-Ball was almost touching the rail and the object ball was against the rail past the side pocket. He jacked up got the ball in drew back and had possition. Amazing.
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Howdy Cardinal

IIRC, Corey pushed out to position on that. That took stones the size of church bells :)
 
yes it was a pushout and Nick refused to shoot. Corey was the better players of the match but lost cause of bad rolls....he gave Nick a couple of nineballs as a gift.
 
Larry, when you say to jack up the cue, how high do you mean?

Let's say that the joint of you're cue is directly above the diamond for this shot. If you are jacking up, do you want the cue joint to be 3-4 inches up, or more like 5-7 inches?

Thanks,
Henry
 
I think some of you guys need to go watch the snooker players play, jack up your cue! LOL

If you want real cue power and real draw its all about the stroke and how good a cueist you are. Unfortunately alot of the nine ball players that play with their finger over the cue never quite matered this art. Steve davis used to play deep screws with a pint of water on his hand. Its all about technique, anyone that tells you to raise your cue unless your near a cussion, to close to the ball or hampered in some other was just doesn't have the technique.

Snooker tables are bigger tables which require tremendous cue power, watch someone like Stephen Lee or Jimmy white pull the white back to bulk while potting a ball 11 foot away. Then tell me how many times you see a guy raise his cue and do a "karate chop" LOL jesus, you'd be laughed out of town!

Be carful who you listen too guys.

Craig
 
These guys are not pool players, they are on a different cloth, smaller balls, everything is different. They have a 10mm tip and a 16 oz cue. They dont hit table length deep screws, they stay down table and just pot black over and over. Comparing them to pool is like comparing tennis to badmitton. You have been out in the sun too long, blimey, write about something you know about. You bozo's dont know squat.
What a hugh mistake trying to teach you something.


Actually most of the snooker players play with a 19oz cue, and atleast a 10mm tip, usually 11 or 12mm. Its would also be a foul to pot black after black as you have to pot reds in between :-) The point is, its MUCH more difficult to perform a deep screw on a snooker table, and they do it without the "karate chop" you so eliquently described! Besides, I didn't know that there was a rule stipulating that 9 ball must be played with a certain tip/cue??? We're talking about a particular shot here, and nobody has mentioned any cue specifics?!

Anyone that says snooker and pool is like comparing tennis to badmington is just being ridiculous. Tony drago got to the WPC semi finals playing with a snooker cue and he'd only ever played 9 ball for two weeks before the event!!! Also didn't see him perform many karate chops! :-)

Enter a badmington player in wimbledon and see how far they get! LOL

The fact is the games are very similar but have distinct differences. However, one thing that is absolutely consistent across all cue sports is technique and timing, if you have them you don't need to "jack up your cue", wrap your finger over it, or "karate chop" anything to get that cue ball to dance and sing the way you like.

Good luck guys
 
I think Number1 misses the point. What is being described is a specialty shot. Why such antagonism?

Also, I always thought the end of snooker was a similar rotation type maneuver with the colored balls? Isn't that why snooker players are able to pick up 9B fairly easily? Not sure since I rarely see people playing on the snooker table, most houses have 1 or none.
 
Number1 said:
I think some of you guys need to go watch the snooker players play, jack up your cue! LOL

If you want real cue power and real draw its all about the stroke and how good a cueist you are. Unfortunately alot of the nine ball players that play with their finger over the cue never quite matered this art. Steve davis used to play deep screws with a pint of water on his hand. Its all about technique, anyone that tells you to raise your cue unless your near a cussion, to close to the ball or hampered in some other was just doesn't have the technique.

Snooker tables are bigger tables which require tremendous cue power, watch someone like Stephen Lee or Jimmy white pull the white back to bulk while potting a ball 11 foot away. Then tell me how many times you see a guy raise his cue and do a "karate chop" LOL jesus, you'd be laughed out of town!

Be carful who you listen too guys.

Craig
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You seem to be forgetting that snooker is mostly played on tables with super fast cloth with very sensitive rails.

If it comes to a stroking contest, Efren can beat any snooker player out there :)
 
fast larry said:
I have been performing that shot in my shows every day now for a decade. All of you guys who were taught to draw low and level you need to go shoot your instructor because you have a moron for a teacher. The guy who said this was a reverse masse does not have a clue, that was the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Yes, jack up, hit it very low, that is the only way it can be done.
Listen to me, I know, the rest of them, dont have a clue, trust me on this.
No fear, AMNIA, VINCIT, AMOR.
Fast Larry Guninger www.fastlarrypool.com
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Mr FL, the whole point of playing with a level cue is that it enables one to pot more balls . The higher you jack up the cue , the less chance you have of potting balls, especially long shots.
During the last WPC I did not notice any player playing with a jacked up cue if it wasnt absolutely neccessary.
Gabber
 

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Thought that went without saying, thats exactly why you shouldn't jack your cue, more chance of swerving the cue ball and missing the shot, although on the 9 ball buckets its less of an issue.

I'm just talking in general, the first guy asked wether he should jack his cue up to get more draw. I'm just pointing otu that if you are a fine cuesist you shouldn't ever need to do this unless of the exceptions stated.

Also I wouldn't say the snooker clothes are much quicker than the nine ball clothes? And the cushions don't really come into it.

Not sure about effren being a finer cueist as Ive never seen him play for long enought, didn't davis come back from 8:0 down to beat him 9:8 though a few years ago? and at his own game? Reyes would never take one frame of davis at snooker? But anyway thats not really the point of this thread.
 
fast larry said:
you need to go shoot your instructor because you have a moron for a teacher. The guy who said this was a reverse masse does not have a clue, that was the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
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You have been out in the sun too long, blimey, write about something you know about. You bozo's dont know squat.
What a hugh mistake trying to teach you something.

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Larry,

You should come to the US Open. I'm sure there's a lot of folks who would like to meet you. :)
 
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