English on the break
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Jim, ( AV84FUN )
I would offer a strong suggestion that you not spam me with reports, like " suggests dishonesty" and "rude".
If you want to offer criticism on the style of mederation I use, be aware of the consequences. Bad idea to play chicken with me.
I would offer a strong suggestion that you not spam me with reports, like " suggests dishonesty" and "rude".
If you want to offer criticism on the style of mederation I use, be aware of the consequences. Bad idea to play chicken with me.
For the record,
[IGNORE=av84fun]
pj
chgo
Patrick has often stated that he felt the need to offer his views in opposition to others because he was concerned about less experienced players who read theses posts being misled.
That is an excellent philosophy and in that same spirit, I would like to sum up several points that have been debated here between Patrick and myself. In the following comments, I will refer only to issues that have a FUNCTIONAL meaning. In other words, I will disregard variables that are essentially meaningless to playing the game of pool. You should too.
Whether any of the following points are in opposition to Patrick's beliefs is unimportant. You decide. But the issue is what is correct in the context of shooting pool, not who is right or wrong in a debate.
1. If you elect to use english on your break shot you need only worry about squirt because there is virtually no swerve.
2. Squirt IS NOT constant for ALL speeds to any meaningful extent. Instead, squirt is, for all practical purposes, absent on very soft shots. What you need to worry about on very soft shots where side english is used is spin induced throw (SIT) and to a much lower degree, swerve... not squirt.
3. When using side english and a stroke that is as level as possible given the height of the top rail, swerve is not a meaningful issue..except possibley on VERY long shots...but squirt can be, depending on the force applied. Therefore, when the CB is frozen to the rail, or nearly so, attempt to stroke it as level as possible and as softly as possible with a well chalked tip and center ball contact. Even though you may contact the CB slightly above the zone where miscues are more likely, ontacting the CB slightly above the so-called upper limit (the top of the stripe when layed horizontally) does not GUARANTEE a miscue. It only makes it more likely the harder the stroke.
But you can easily contact the CB above the zone with sufficient force to roll the CB 2 table lengths without miscueing.
4. The geometric contact point (derived by a line running through the center of the ball to the center of the pocket) will NOT predict the path of the OB into the pocket on most cut shots shot with center ball cueing.
That is due to collission induced throw (CIT) which, according to Koehler in Science of Pocket Billiards results in a MINIMUM 4 degree departure from the geometrically derived OB path and can increase to as much as 11% depending on chalk marks and other forms of grime, hand oil and powder.
People chuckle when Johhny Archer stops play to ask for the cb/ob to be cleaned of a chalk mark. They think that he is stalling...and he might be from time to time. But most often, IMHO, he wants to remove a chalk mark because he knows what he is doing and understands how CIT can increase dramatically and ruin the shot.
Have you ever seen a pro dog an easy shot (like Efren dogged a baby shot on the 8 ball at the WPC) and get that stunned, deer in the headlights look on their face? Well, the miss could EASILY have resulted from a fresh chalk mark residing on the exact contact point.
So, you either have to modify the geometric contact point or use outside english sufficient to offset CIT, or be close enough to the pocket that a 4 degree variation doesn't matter.
Some noted authors (although in the minority) suggest that you not use outside english routinely on cut shots and rather, adjust the CP to account for CIT. Avoid that advice like the plague. But just be aware of the potential for swerve (a minor issue except for appreciably slanted cue angles) and squirt which can be a significant issue.
Again, the above ignores scientific minutia that while true enough, does not matter in the context of pocketing balls and getting shape on others. Such minutia may be thrilling discussion for engineering geeks or those writing a PHD thesis. But the rest of us who are just interested in shoot pool should avoid paralysis by analysis at all costs.
All the above is ,of course IMHO... and with the admission that I used big rubber bands to make paper wad zip guns out of slide rules in high school!
(-:
Regards,
Jim
That is an excellent philosophy and in that same spirit, I would like to sum up several points that have been debated here between Patrick and myself. In the following comments, I will refer only to issues that have a FUNCTIONAL meaning. In other words, I will disregard variables that are essentially meaningless to playing the game of pool. You should too.
Whether any of the following points are in opposition to Patrick's beliefs is unimportant. You decide. But the issue is what is correct in the context of shooting pool, not who is right or wrong in a debate.
1. If you elect to use english on your break shot you need only worry about squirt because there is virtually no swerve.
2. Squirt IS NOT constant for ALL speeds to any meaningful extent. Instead, squirt is, for all practical purposes, absent on very soft shots. What you need to worry about on very soft shots where side english is used is spin induced throw (SIT) and to a much lower degree, swerve... not squirt.
3. When using side english and a stroke that is as level as possible given the height of the top rail, swerve is not a meaningful issue..except possibley on VERY long shots...but squirt can be, depending on the force applied. Therefore, when the CB is frozen to the rail, or nearly so, attempt to stroke it as level as possible and as softly as possible with a well chalked tip and center ball contact. Even though you may contact the CB slightly above the zone where miscues are more likely, ontacting the CB slightly above the so-called upper limit (the top of the stripe when layed horizontally) does not GUARANTEE a miscue. It only makes it more likely the harder the stroke.
But you can easily contact the CB above the zone with sufficient force to roll the CB 2 table lengths without miscueing.
4. The geometric contact point (derived by a line running through the center of the ball to the center of the pocket) will NOT predict the path of the OB into the pocket on most cut shots shot with center ball cueing.
That is due to collission induced throw (CIT) which, according to Koehler in Science of Pocket Billiards results in a MINIMUM 4 degree departure from the geometrically derived OB path and can increase to as much as 11% depending on chalk marks and other forms of grime, hand oil and powder.
People chuckle when Johhny Archer stops play to ask for the cb/ob to be cleaned of a chalk mark. They think that he is stalling...and he might be from time to time. But most often, IMHO, he wants to remove a chalk mark because he knows what he is doing and understands how CIT can increase dramatically and ruin the shot.
Have you ever seen a pro dog an easy shot (like Efren dogged a baby shot on the 8 ball at the WPC) and get that stunned, deer in the headlights look on their face? Well, the miss could EASILY have resulted from a fresh chalk mark residing on the exact contact point.
So, you either have to modify the geometric contact point or use outside english sufficient to offset CIT, or be close enough to the pocket that a 4 degree variation doesn't matter.
Some noted authors (although in the minority) suggest that you not use outside english routinely on cut shots and rather, adjust the CP to account for CIT. Avoid that advice like the plague. But just be aware of the potential for swerve (a minor issue except for appreciably slanted cue angles) and squirt which can be a significant issue.
Again, the above ignores scientific minutia that while true enough, does not matter in the context of pocketing balls and getting shape on others. Such minutia may be thrilling discussion for engineering geeks or those writing a PHD thesis. But the rest of us who are just interested in shoot pool should avoid paralysis by analysis at all costs.
All the above is ,of course IMHO... and with the admission that I used big rubber bands to make paper wad zip guns out of slide rules in high school!
(-:
Regards,
Jim
I'm glad you mentioned chalk on qball cause thats what I do before I break, clean it on my tshirt.
Can swerve the qball on the break, it stuns a bit more. Curveball drilled onto the side of the front balls face.
I use drawspin sometimes to draw away the qball back towards me after the pack explodes, to get it out of the way of collisions that may pocket it.
Can't really get a straight cue(level) over a rail, otherwise I wouldn't be having to try to lower the backhand. But on the cloth, can, ten percent of the time when its needed.
Obviously, playing soft shots only to avoid deflections means theres not many gears operating. So thats where imparting spin and playing to use the angles the qball can go comes into play to break clusters, balls of rails, caroms. Any theory based on that (the soft shot theory of how to avoid everything and do nothing) isn't relevant. Other than a natural angle and placement.
Another thing, don't have to the bounce the qball everytime. Sometimes, can play it low and it'll hug the cloth. So, but inside english, as they say is the best for getting action happening with the coloreds.
Theres a power break that stuns and they roll, shot just below dead centre qball to dead centre front ball. But a spinnier break can do as much damage. Its looser, often faster but unpredictable.
Can swerve the qball on the break, it stuns a bit more. Curveball drilled onto the side of the front balls face.
I use drawspin sometimes to draw away the qball back towards me after the pack explodes, to get it out of the way of collisions that may pocket it.
Can't really get a straight cue(level) over a rail, otherwise I wouldn't be having to try to lower the backhand. But on the cloth, can, ten percent of the time when its needed.
Obviously, playing soft shots only to avoid deflections means theres not many gears operating. So thats where imparting spin and playing to use the angles the qball can go comes into play to break clusters, balls of rails, caroms. Any theory based on that (the soft shot theory of how to avoid everything and do nothing) isn't relevant. Other than a natural angle and placement.
Another thing, don't have to the bounce the qball everytime. Sometimes, can play it low and it'll hug the cloth. So, but inside english, as they say is the best for getting action happening with the coloreds.
Theres a power break that stuns and they roll, shot just below dead centre qball to dead centre front ball. But a spinnier break can do as much damage. Its looser, often faster but unpredictable.
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BlackDragon said:
I don't believe that is correct on a hard break shot which is the subject of this thread. It is difficult to see the cb hop because it is moving away from you and your eyes are much higher than the ball. Byrne (I think) suggested stacking two dimes in front of the cb and hitting it low and hard and then observe that the stack is not disturbed.
Regards,
Jim
Patrick Johnson said:
You write :you can't hit the CB with a level stick with your butt over the rail. In fact, it's very unusual (just about nonexistent) to hit the CB with a level stick on any shot.
And from another post, confirming your conclusion you wrote:
"No matter how you dicker over terminology, you can't hit a level-cue break shot (or any other shot within 5 feet of a rail) on a normal pool table."
In your diagram, you depict a level cue showing that the bottom of the tip resides slightly above what you describe as the upper "limit" for miscueing.
But "limit" implies an absolute and it is not at all absolutely certain that a miscue will result from tip contact "above the stripe." It is certainly more likely, especially with harder shots but a miscue is obviously not guaranteed...or even LIKELY on softer shots.
As for such shots being "just about nonexistant", that is far from correct. Cue balls become frozen to the rail (or nearly so) with reasonable frequency and OFTEN the best course of action IS to stroke level...softly..."above the stripe zone" to avoid the risk of squirt/swerve when stroking downward.
If you chalk your cue properly and are careful to strike the CB on the vertical centerline, you will find that you can send the CB two full table lengths without risking a miscue.
Since such shots do come up frequently, it is important not to mislead those who are relatively new to the game as you have often pointed out.
Regards,
Jim
Patrick Johnson, it is your turn to be warned.
If you are not going to stick to facts and must resort to ad hominem attacks, you lost the debate.
Knock it off already.
If you are not going to stick to facts and must resort to ad hominem attacks, you lost the debate.
Knock it off already.
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