english with draw and follow (long)

[Tommy Tube Sock]

So with all my holiday travel behind me, I finally have time to start focusing on what's really important; my pool game!

I've been working on an exercise modeled after Joe Tucker's 3rd eye trainer video. I shoot a laser from the center of one corner pocket to the opposite diagonal corner pocket. I then put donuts at each dot(diamond) along the laser. Starting with a one dot distance, I shoot 8 or 9 (depending on how many balls I've pulled out) perfect stop shots. I then do the same number of follow shots. With the follow shots, I try to first stay straight with the follow and then try to pinpoint the exact distance measured in dots. Finally, I do the same with draw shots.

I then move to 2 diamonds distance and if I'm really ambitious, 3 diamonds. Stop and follow are okay at 3 diamonds, but the draw shots are not pretty.

So finally, my question(s)

When I hit a draw or follow shot and the cue ball does not stay on the path, am I hitting off center on the cue and putting un-intentional left/right english? My understanding of english is that there is minimal effect from ball to ball collision and that english is only useful when the cue ball hits a rail.

In my exercise, I am trying to hit with no english and draw or follow straight back or forward. My sense is that when I make my object ball and draw back to the left (for example) I have actually just cheated the pocket to the right. This may be function of hitting off center, but it is not the english that is causing the cue to come back to the left. Rather it is the slight cut with draw.

I am asking because I am trying to see my mistakes as learning experiences. Okay, I tried to draw straight back, but I drew back and to the right. Someday I may want to draw back and to the right, so how did that happen? Was it english? or was it angle?

Bottom line question - is it possible to affect the path of the cue ball on a draw or follow shot with english? (prior to the cue hitting a rail)

 

[raybo147]

So with all my holiday travel behind me, I finally have time to start focusing on what's really important; my pool game!

I've been working on an exercise modeled after Joe Tucker's 3rd eye trainer video. I shoot a laser from the center of one corner pocket to the opposite diagonal corner pocket. I then put donuts at each dot(diamond) along the laser. Starting with a one dot distance, I shoot 8 or 9 (depending on how many balls I've pulled out) perfect stop shots. I then do the same number of follow shots. With the follow shots, I try to first stay straight with the follow and then try to pinpoint the exact distance measured in dots. Finally, I do the same with draw shots.

I then move to 2 diamonds distance and if I'm really ambitious, 3 diamonds. Stop and follow are okay at 3 diamonds, but the draw shots are not pretty.

So finally, my question(s)

When I hit a draw or follow shot and the cue ball does not stay on the path, am I hitting off center on the cue and putting un-intentional left/right english? My understanding of english is that there is minimal effect from ball to ball collision and that english is only useful when the cue ball hits a rail.

In my exercise, I am trying to hit with no english and draw or follow straight back or forward. My sense is that when I make my object ball and draw back to the left (for example) I have actually just cheated the pocket to the right. This may be function of hitting off center, but it is not the english that is causing the cue to come back to the left. Rather it is the slight cut with draw.

I am asking because I am trying to see my mistakes as learning experiences. Okay, I tried to draw straight back, but I drew back and to the right. Someday I may want to draw back and to the right, so how did that happen? Was it english? or was it angle?

Bottom line question - is it possible to affect the path of the cue ball on a draw or follow shot with english? (prior to the cue hitting a rail)

I think what you are seeing is the effect of a slightly off center hit. Even if you hit the cue ball off center just a fraction some side spin will be imparted onto the ball. This might not be enough to make you miss the shot or even enough that you can tell you did it, but when you are tracking it in a drill like this, you can see the results. There is several drills you can do that will tell you how straight your stroke is. To awnser your second question yes you can affect the cue ball this way and I am sure a lot of the teachers on here could explain that better than I could.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So with all my holiday travel behind me, I finally have time to start focusing on what's really important; my pool game!

I've been working on an exercise modeled after Joe Tucker's 3rd eye trainer video. I shoot a laser from the center of one corner pocket to the opposite diagonal corner pocket. I then put donuts at each dot(diamond) along the laser. Starting with a one dot distance, I shoot 8 or 9 (depending on how many balls I've pulled out) perfect stop shots. I then do the same number of follow shots. With the follow shots, I try to first stay straight with the follow and then try to pinpoint the exact distance measured in dots. Finally, I do the same with draw shots.

I then move to 2 diamonds distance and if I'm really ambitious, 3 diamonds. Stop and follow are okay at 3 diamonds, but the draw shots are not pretty.

So finally, my question(s)

When I hit a draw or follow shot and the cue ball does not stay on the path, am I hitting off center on the cue and putting un-intentional left/right english? My understanding of english is that there is minimal effect from ball to ball collision and that english is only useful when the cue ball hits a rail.

In my exercise, I am trying to hit with no english and draw or follow straight back or forward. My sense is that when I make my object ball and draw back to the left (for example) I have actually just cheated the pocket to the right. This may be function of hitting off center, but it is not the english that is causing the cue to come back to the left. Rather it is the slight cut with draw.

I am asking because I am trying to see my mistakes as learning experiences. Okay, I tried to draw straight back, but I drew back and to the right. Someday I may want to draw back and to the right, so how did that happen? Was it english? or was it angle?

Bottom line question - is it possible to affect the path of the cue ball on a draw or follow shot with english? (prior to the cue hitting a rail)

From your posting, it seems like you don't fully understand the basics of squirt, swerve and throw. There are several good books that describe these, or you can see Mike Page's explanations on www.youtube.com under the user name "fargobilliards".

The easiest way to see if you are putting unintended side spin on the cue ball is to use a striped ball as the cue ball. You could buy one of those training cue balls, but a regular stripe works nearly as well.

You will either have to learn to diagnose your own problems (which is hard) or find an instructor. It is nearly impossible to figure out over the internet what someone is doing wrong.

 

[Tommy Tube Sock]

Thanks for the reply

From your posting, it seems like you don't fully understand the basics of squirt, swerve and throw. There are several good books that describe these, or you can see Mike Page's explanations on www.youtube.com under the user name "fargobilliards".

The easiest way to see if you are putting unintended side spin on the cue ball is to use a striped ball as the cue ball. You could buy one of those training cue balls, but a regular stripe works nearly as well.

You will either have to learn to diagnose your own problems (which is hard) or find an instructor. It is nearly impossible to figure out over the internet what someone is doing wrong.

I thought I had a basic understanding of squirt, swerve, and throw. Maybe not:

I understand squirt to be the deflection of the cue ball off the natural straight path to the opposite direction of the side english. So left english will cause the cue ball to "squirt" to the right.

Swerve I understand to be the effect of the spin on the cloth forcing the cue ball in the direction of the spin. Like a masse shot, so left english will produce left swerve.

Throw I understand to be the the result of balls clinging together at collision so that the object ball is thrown off natural path on a cut shot. English can be used to counteract or exageratte throw effects.

If I am one diamond from the object ball and attempting to draw straight back on a straight in shot, I wouldn't think throw would come into play at all. If I hit off center by mistake, (lets say to the left) there will be some squirt to the right, but probably not much time for swerve to take effect. If there is enough squirt, I may miss the object ball. But I'm most curious about the physics of what happens to the cue ball.

Obviously, I know that if I hit a cue ball staight into the rail with left english, it will rebound to the left. I didn't think this was the case when a cue ball contacts another ball. So in the above example, if the cue ball draws back and to the right, it may be that I have actually hit off center to the left, squirting the cue to the right and producing a slight cut. The object ball may still go in by cheating the pocket, but the cue ball will not come straight back?

Or could it be that I have hit off center to the right and the spin is causing the ball to come back to the right?

I had watched a lot of Mike Page's videos, I will go back and re-watch. I also will try some of these shots using a stripe as the cue ball.

But can you tell if I'm on the right track in assuming that low left does not make the ball draw back and to the left on a straight in shot?

 

[Jal]

I thought I had a basic understanding of squirt, swerve, and throw. Maybe not:

I understand squirt to be the deflection of the cue ball off the natural straight path to the opposite direction of the side english. So left english will cause the cue ball to "squirt" to the right.

Swerve I understand to be the effect of the spin on the cloth forcing the cue ball in the direction of the spin. Like a masse shot, so left english will produce left swerve.

Throw I understand to be the the result of balls clinging together at collision so that the object ball is thrown off natural path on a cut shot. English can be used to counteract or exageratte throw effects.

Your understanding is perfect, imo. A minor nitpick though is that "rubbing together" might be a better phrase than "clinging together" to describe throw. "Cling" is usually meant to describe an abnormally large amount of throw, though it still is just a result of rubbing.

...But can you tell if I'm on the right track in assuming that low left does not make the ball draw back and to the left on a straight in shot?

Yes it can. You said it earlier: "If I hit off center by mistake, (lets say to the left) there will be some squirt to the right, but probably not much time for swerve to take effect."

If the cueball doesn't have time to swerve before impact, it will still have the spin which causes swerve after impact. In the process of swerving, a ball loses the spin component which causes it to swerve. If it doesn't rid itself of this component before impact, by swerving, it will do so afterwards. So in your example, it will curve a little bit to the left even after a full hit. It will also be thrown to the left while the object ball is thrown to the right, if no aiming adjustment is made.

Jim