Today I was approached by a Vietnamese guy who is staying in Australia. From my sources, he is a mid-high end cue dealer. He wanted me to produce replica of American cuemakers design and I refuse. I do not wanna misjudge anyone, but I just want people to be wary of fake items.
Fake American Cuemakers cue??
- Thread starter joshkoh
- Start date
The way I read it, the guy wanted the designs copied. That's done all the time... maybe people want a cue that has a nice, classic design (the Kaiser SW copy cues come to mind) without the hefty price tag. I would say that's ok as long as nobody is trying to sell it as an authentic big name cue.
When I think of cues from PI makers, I picture 200 slightly crooked inlays with a goofy looking cobra skin wrap combined with a warped shaft. If I were trying to coordinate production of cues to sell, I might request the same.
When I think of cues from PI makers, I picture 200 slightly crooked inlays with a goofy looking cobra skin wrap combined with a warped shaft. If I were trying to coordinate production of cues to sell, I might request the same.
I smell fish....
Something really fishy here.
Zero itrader plus you sell on Facebook sites...or try to.
I see you have a Meucci Gambler for sale with a black dot shaft you say that's 27 years old vintage cue and it is new.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/billiardsmarket/
:scratchhead:
Something really fishy here.
Zero itrader plus you sell on Facebook sites...or try to.
I see you have a Meucci Gambler for sale with a black dot shaft you say that's 27 years old vintage cue and it is new.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/billiardsmarket/
:scratchhead:
Poolguy4u.. please read my post on the facebook properly. i state "Brandnew POST HOF Mass Production Is Selling At USD580"
IT MEANS : Brandnew POST Hall Of Fame is selling at xxx... I never mention that the one that i have is BRANDNEW....
Andy by the way, whatever i am selling is posting on behalf of my customers. Checkout Singapore Emarketplace for Qs and JosMar Billiard Supplies on facebook. I have 101% Positive rating. Moreover I am always with Bustamante and Efren and other Ph players, I would never want my reputation to be turnish. If ever you happen to see any of them, just mention BOZZ Andy the singaporean and they will give you the thumbs up about me.
IT MEANS : Brandnew POST Hall Of Fame is selling at xxx... I never mention that the one that i have is BRANDNEW....
Andy by the way, whatever i am selling is posting on behalf of my customers. Checkout Singapore Emarketplace for Qs and JosMar Billiard Supplies on facebook. I have 101% Positive rating. Moreover I am always with Bustamante and Efren and other Ph players, I would never want my reputation to be turnish. If ever you happen to see any of them, just mention BOZZ Andy the singaporean and they will give you the thumbs up about me.
Guys, for your info, I DO NOT GAIN anything from posting this issue. I was wanna do my part as a pool player / dealer in this small community to warn everyone of potential scammer. If you think that whatever i am doing is fishy, I dun give a damn at all. For those who appreciate my post and sent me pm, Thanks guys for the support.
:shakehead:
But you said the cue was vintage and 27 years old...and it has a black dot shaft.
So what is true? I don't think you know what you're selling.
Just be honest. It doesn't matter who you hang with.
Just tell the truth.:thumbup:
What the frick?! The topic is not about a Moochie he has listed...separate issue altogether. so start a separate thread if you want to lambast him for that. What is it with people who just cannot stay on topic?!
Personally, I feel that both he and Al B should be applauded for standing by their convictions and to NOT copy other makers' designs that are immediately recognizable as the respective makers' cues. There is no mistaking a Gina or BB for exactly what it is. Perhaps they're trying to put Filipino cue making on the map...much as our dearly departed Edwin Reyes tried to do...and he paid for it with his life.
Instead of trying to get a maker to build a copy of another maker's cue 'on the cheap', how about firing up the ol' brain and coming up with something original?
Personally, I feel that both he and Al B should be applauded for standing by their convictions and to NOT copy other makers' designs that are immediately recognizable as the respective makers' cues. There is no mistaking a Gina or BB for exactly what it is. Perhaps they're trying to put Filipino cue making on the map...much as our dearly departed Edwin Reyes tried to do...and he paid for it with his life.
Instead of trying to get a maker to build a copy of another maker's cue 'on the cheap', how about firing up the ol' brain and coming up with something original?
So sorry...thought the thread was about people being honest.
No need to get your fricken undies in a bunch....
Nice try...no sale. The thread was about the ethics (or lack of) when copying another, well-known and well-established cue maker's work. I think that was pretty clear with all the FB postings the OP included with his post.
You attempted to hi-jack the thread and turn it into something YOU wanted to discuss...hence, off-topic. It's really pretty simple...start a separate thread about what YOU want to discuss. Not like it costs ya anything.
You attempted to hi-jack the thread and turn it into something YOU wanted to discuss...hence, off-topic. It's really pretty simple...start a separate thread about what YOU want to discuss. Not like it costs ya anything.
alanvo
Banned
1. This is childish and pretty inconsiderate for a business-minded person to post a private conversation.
2. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
If someone can't afford a $18,000 BB, he should know that the same design can be done elsewhere for $2000. It will not hit like a BB, however, it will look like a BB. The cue will not be sold as a BB.
3. I certainly ordered a cue from Anastacio Bautista, and that cue warped around 2 months after I received it. Cue was NEVER played, and always stored in a case. When talked about this, Anastacio Bautista wanted me to send it back to him for a fix. It took me almost a year to get this order done (promised 4 months), after tons of excuses. I took it as a bad deal and moved on.
Questions?
p/s: my apology to Al Bautista (aka blackpearl), I was confused between you and Anastacio.
2. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
If someone can't afford a $18,000 BB, he should know that the same design can be done elsewhere for $2000. It will not hit like a BB, however, it will look like a BB. The cue will not be sold as a BB.
3. I certainly ordered a cue from Anastacio Bautista, and that cue warped around 2 months after I received it. Cue was NEVER played, and always stored in a case. When talked about this, Anastacio Bautista wanted me to send it back to him for a fix. It took me almost a year to get this order done (promised 4 months), after tons of excuses. I took it as a bad deal and moved on.
Questions?
p/s: my apology to Al Bautista (aka blackpearl), I was confused between you and Anastacio.
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It's called cue design theft....period. NO amount of justification is going to make it anything other than what it is. You're just mad because you got busted at trying to convince someone to throw aside their ethics, and build what you want; that you think you can make money on. I believe the word I'm looking for is unscrupulous.
I also find it interesting that your profile states you reside in CA, but you readily admitted that you, in fact, live in Australia.....curiouser and curiouser.
BTW...he calls you out, you incriminate yourself...and you're gonna give HIM red rep?!!!! Ballsy dude!
Oh...BTW...you put it out there on a social media site like FB, for the whole world to see, you can't cry 'foul' when the whole world sees it!
I also find it interesting that your profile states you reside in CA, but you readily admitted that you, in fact, live in Australia.....curiouser and curiouser.
BTW...he calls you out, you incriminate yourself...and you're gonna give HIM red rep?!!!! Ballsy dude!
Oh...BTW...you put it out there on a social media site like FB, for the whole world to see, you can't cry 'foul' when the whole world sees it!
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Guess I have to subscribe to this topic.
Here is how I feel about it.
First you don't bash the whole cue making industry in the Phillipines and then say well if you will do some copies then I will consider ordering. That's kind of the wrong way to go about it IMO.
Although I feel it's tacky to copy other people's designs verbatim I don't really see the harm in a customer asking for it. Alan is right if you can't afford the Mona Lisa then you have to get a reproduction. You can't stop people's feelings and if they are truly in love with a design then they might try to find someone to do it for them. If it's ok for cue dealers to comission "tributes" that are wholly or substantially copied from old cues then it's got to be ok for consumers to do the same.
I wouldn't make a business of it but I can certainly see why some do. And I can respect those who stand up and say they won't copy the designs of others. I happen to be someone whose designs were copied verbatim, whose designs are now currently being copied, and someone who also looks everywhere for inspiration. While I won't copy someone's case verbatim I have no problem taking interesting elements and doing my own version of it.
I will say though that it's tacky to post the private conversation just because Alan wants to find someone to do replicas for him. No real need to do that since judging by the conversation it didn't see too heated. To me it's kind of throwing Alan under the bus with no need. If Josh wants points for refusing to copy he could have simply stated that a customer asked him to make copies and he replied that he is not Kinkos.
Here is how I feel about it.
First you don't bash the whole cue making industry in the Phillipines and then say well if you will do some copies then I will consider ordering. That's kind of the wrong way to go about it IMO.
Although I feel it's tacky to copy other people's designs verbatim I don't really see the harm in a customer asking for it. Alan is right if you can't afford the Mona Lisa then you have to get a reproduction. You can't stop people's feelings and if they are truly in love with a design then they might try to find someone to do it for them. If it's ok for cue dealers to comission "tributes" that are wholly or substantially copied from old cues then it's got to be ok for consumers to do the same.
I wouldn't make a business of it but I can certainly see why some do. And I can respect those who stand up and say they won't copy the designs of others. I happen to be someone whose designs were copied verbatim, whose designs are now currently being copied, and someone who also looks everywhere for inspiration. While I won't copy someone's case verbatim I have no problem taking interesting elements and doing my own version of it.
I will say though that it's tacky to post the private conversation just because Alan wants to find someone to do replicas for him. No real need to do that since judging by the conversation it didn't see too heated. To me it's kind of throwing Alan under the bus with no need. If Josh wants points for refusing to copy he could have simply stated that a customer asked him to make copies and he replied that he is not Kinkos.
Pool4u : Yes I admit that I am new in this cuemaking and selling industry. I had been playing pool for many years but not into the dealing and production. Thats why my itrader is 0. I am still at the learning stage. BUT does that means that I cant be trusted? Dude, you started somewhere, sometimes ago as ZERO too. If this community did not give you a chance before, we would you be now? As for the Meucci, I am selling on behalf of a client, and the details were given by him. I would appreciate it better if you would just "TEach" and "Correct" me and not jump to conclusion that I am fishy. You misunderstood my post as brandnew at first, which is a result of you not reading properly my post.
I started this cuemaking business mainly for a group of my fellow good friends who used to work for some of the well-know makers in Philippines, they were out of job for months and the families are suffering. I took them in, give them a place to stay and bought lathe and other equipments for them to make a living. If you had known me personally, you will know that I DO NOT NEED to earn from cue making. I have very sustainable permanent business that could see me through for 3 generations.
ALANVO : Aldex (son of Al Bautista) had already done his part and clarify. If you think the warp is true, please contact him. Also, I had spoken to Mervin Bautista, son of Bebot Bautista and he told me that he requested a custom cue out of Coolibah Burl and Black ash burl, he did warn that that this burl wood are very uncontrollable and prone to warpage BUT you insist to have it done. After you got the cue, there were no news of you but 1yr after you got the cue, you did email them really to custom a butt for your mezz shaft. You did not mention anything at all about warping of the cue. Frankly dude, as what the community says, there are alot of people who replican other cuemakers work but that does not give you the right to insult PH cuemakers. They Have Pride Too.
Ridewiththewind : Thanks dude for standing up against cue design theft.
I started this cuemaking business mainly for a group of my fellow good friends who used to work for some of the well-know makers in Philippines, they were out of job for months and the families are suffering. I took them in, give them a place to stay and bought lathe and other equipments for them to make a living. If you had known me personally, you will know that I DO NOT NEED to earn from cue making. I have very sustainable permanent business that could see me through for 3 generations.
ALANVO : Aldex (son of Al Bautista) had already done his part and clarify. If you think the warp is true, please contact him. Also, I had spoken to Mervin Bautista, son of Bebot Bautista and he told me that he requested a custom cue out of Coolibah Burl and Black ash burl, he did warn that that this burl wood are very uncontrollable and prone to warpage BUT you insist to have it done. After you got the cue, there were no news of you but 1yr after you got the cue, you did email them really to custom a butt for your mezz shaft. You did not mention anything at all about warping of the cue. Frankly dude, as what the community says, there are alot of people who replican other cuemakers work but that does not give you the right to insult PH cuemakers. They Have Pride Too.
Ridewiththewind : Thanks dude for standing up against cue design theft.
JB Cases : Thanks dude your comments, I do agree with you. It is an open Buy/Sell market. Actually my main point on this thread is to warn people IN CASE they do deal with ALANVO, that he does mention to the buyer that those are replica. Cos recently I had a friend living in Australia and bought a Tony Bautista Custom cue, it was sent to me for refinishing, and my guys found out that the Signature was actually a decal. After tracing down the line, we managed to find out who was the very original seller.
Secondly, if you had read thru the attachment I posted, have you notice HOW he had insulted Philippines cuemakers? Yes there is nothing wrong for him to approach me in private for replica but he does NOT have the rights to insult the cuemakers. Personally I am not filipino but had been working with them, living with them for more then 10yrs.
alanvo
Banned
What about all the SW style cues/cuemakers?
Would you cry for them too? I'm sure most of you PH cuemakers will take on any SW style cue order.
I initially contacted you about wood availability, and when you don't have any good looking wood, I asked if you could copy designs. What would be wrong about it?
If your design is crap and undesirable, learn to take critics/feedbacks from customers who purposely give you business.
Would you cry for them too? I'm sure most of you PH cuemakers will take on any SW style cue order.
I initially contacted you about wood availability, and when you don't have any good looking wood, I asked if you could copy designs. What would be wrong about it?
If your design is crap and undesirable, learn to take critics/feedbacks from customers who purposely give you business.
Josh the title is misleading. Getting a replica is not a fake. It's only a fake IF the product is represented as an original when it's not.
There are people in the USA and abroad who have made counterfeit cues. The old joke goes something like this, out of the thousands of Balabushkas on the market George made hundreds of them.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to go off on Alan as if he intended to counterfeit cues. Until he is actually caught selling fake Ginas I wouldn't convict him of said crime.
Many otherwise upstanding people on this forum have had replicas made. It's a thriving business for some dealers and cue makers.
Counterfeiting is a crime. Making replicas clearly identified as such is not. Unless of course the design is protected, in which case even making a replica is a crime.
To Alan, if you're gonna be so forceful in private chat don't be surprised if it gets published.
Tip: Sometimes I will call someone a name in chat that I think fits them perfectly in full knowledge that they will publish it for me.
There are people in the USA and abroad who have made counterfeit cues. The old joke goes something like this, out of the thousands of Balabushkas on the market George made hundreds of them.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to go off on Alan as if he intended to counterfeit cues. Until he is actually caught selling fake Ginas I wouldn't convict him of said crime.
Many otherwise upstanding people on this forum have had replicas made. It's a thriving business for some dealers and cue makers.
Counterfeiting is a crime. Making replicas clearly identified as such is not. Unless of course the design is protected, in which case even making a replica is a crime.
To Alan, if you're gonna be so forceful in private chat don't be surprised if it gets published.
Tip: Sometimes I will call someone a name in chat that I think fits them perfectly in full knowledge that they will publish it for me.
Thanks Alan, you corrected it, your apology is accepted.
alanvo
Banned
Indeed, I chose to be direct, and straight to the point, unlike most of you who would say one thing and backstab the following minute.
Not that it's your place to judge, but replicas are simply replicas. They are to showcase the great designs and cuemakers' skills.